Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Brownson got it exactly right (full quote in my post here at #103):


Note what he says: "receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proxima dispositione." I think Lad would agree that's that's the main issue. I think this requires an "explicit desire," but that's besides the point and perhaps my problem. I talked about the "core concept" in this or another thread, and that's it: the possibility (a positive formulation of the Brownson's negation of the negative, "not impossible") of justification/salvation by votum.

Msgr. Fention expressed it thus:




Fenton says this is "the revealed teaching," and includes "an implicit votum." I'm not sure of that, but I'll accept that; anyway, as I said elsewhere, it doesn't matter: explicit or implicit, the core remains: the real possibility of salvation in Christ by votum.

St. Robert Bellarmine expressed it thus:
I'm pretty much done with this discussion [I think I spent way too much time on it already.  I've also noticed my posting in general is starting an upward trend again, and that's not good for me], but I think the core issue [as Lad mentioned on page 6] is squaring "possibility of salvation by desire" vs "absolutely necessary to receive water baptism for salvation".  And when I refer to salvation, I am referring to going to Heaven/seeing the Beatific Vision vs going to some sort of Limbo where there is no suffering.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
I'm pretty much done with this discussion [I think I spent way too much time on it already.  I've also noticed my posting in general is starting an upward trend again, and that's not good for me], but I think the core issue [as Lad mentioned on page 6] is squaring "possibility of salvation by desire" vs "absolutely necessary to receive water baptism for salvation".  And when I refer to salvation, I am referring to going to Heaven/seeing the Beatific Vision vs going to some sort of Limbo where there is no suffering.

The "absolute necessity" would be the receipt of the grace of the sacrament either in re or by votum. 

I understand being done with the discussion. You express your view and clarify as necessary, then at some point it  becomes redundant unless some other issue introduces itself. 


The "absolute necessity" would be the receipt of the grace of the sacrament either in re or by votum.

I understand being done with the discussion. You express your view and clarify as necessary, then at some point it  becomes redundant unless some other issue introduces itself.

Unfortunately, the absolute necessary speaks of water baptism, so no the issue of squaring is still there.

Anyway, thanks for understanding.  I hope I didn't come off rude...it wasn't meant to be.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter

Unfortunately, the absolute necessary speaks of water baptism, so no the issue of squaring is still there.

Anyway, thanks for understanding.  I hope I didn't come off rude...it wasn't meant to be.

Ok, but not for St. Robert, St. Alphonsus, etc., and they were aware of, and cited, the Council of Trent. 

But I absolutely understand and share your concern and faithfulness as a member of the body of Christ in reflecting on this issue:


Quote
Galatians 1:8-10


[8]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. [10] For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Ok, but not for St. Robert, St. Alphonsus, etc., and they were aware of, and cited, the Council of Trent.

I got this quote from St. Alphonsus from a poster who, believe it or not, was actually using it to show St. Alphonsus taught a BOD:

Quote
"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)." - Saint Alphonsus Liguori

Taken from:  (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Dublin, 1846.)