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Author Topic: False BOD is Foundational to VatII  (Read 8697 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2021, 02:58:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 19, 2021, 12:05:07 PM
    I'm not interested in debating this endlessly for every new person that jumps on the "non-Catholics are saved" bandwagon.

    If you believe that, then go for it.  But then, since there's no salvation outside the Church, then non-Catholics can be in the Church, and therefore you can make haste back to the Novus Ordo, since you no longer have any theological justification for rejecting any of the Vatican II teachings, certainly not enough to justify severing communion with the Holy See.

    Join the focus line behind Pax and Tradhican.

    Deal with the St. Alphonsus's quotes and relevant questions in light of, which you apparently won't address. I'm not looking for a long dissertation on BOD, but a discussion of specific St. Alphonsus quotes and their significance in light of Trent, etc.

    I realize that's a problem for you, but still . . . don't stuff another straw man, like the ones you love to burn.

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #76 on: April 19, 2021, 03:01:12 PM »
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    • Quote
    I'm focusing on what St. Alphonsus said.
    You're the one that needs to focus.  It's been pointed out, about 10x in the last month, on various St Alphonsus threads, that he said contradictory things.  You've posted on most of these threads, so either you didn't read the whole thread or you didn't understand it.
    .
    One one hand, St Alphonsus agrees with Trent, St Thomas and the Church Fathers...on the other hand, he explains salvation very sentimentally and modernistically.  It's obvious which quotes are orthodox.  There's no need to discuss it further.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #77 on: April 19, 2021, 03:09:23 PM »
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    • Lad,

    For example, you never touched the fact that St. Alphonsus clearly believed in implicit BOD. Even if he believed explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation was needed for salvation, that has nothing to do with the sacraments.

    What does his belief in implicit BOD do to your view about the necessity of the sacraments, since someone can have an implicit BOD without being conscious of the sacrament, of which he is unaware - as St. Alphonsus notes.

    It's a huge problem for you if St. Alphonsus meets your definition of a heretic who denies what you describe as "the necessity of the sacraments," which is de fide . . . but in what sense? St. Alphonsus clearly doesn't hold your sense.

    I understand this is a huge problem for you, but if you can't address maybe you should rethink a view that results in St. Alphonsus = heretic.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #78 on: April 19, 2021, 03:13:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2021, 03:01:12 PM
    You're the one that needs to focus.  It's been pointed out, about 10x in the last month, on various St Alphonsus threads, that he said contradictory things.  You've posted on most of these threads, so either you didn't read the whole thread or you didn't understand it.
    .
    One one hand, St Alphonsus agrees with Trent, St Thomas and the Church Fathers...on the other hand, he explains salvation very sentimentally and modernistically.  It's obvious which quotes are orthodox.  There's no need to discuss it further.

    See my last post to Lad. I don't think he ever contradicted himself on implicit BOD, for example. Where is the necessity for the sacraments with implicit BOD?

    Also, I haven't had the time to go through all the quotes that Tradhican posted from St. Alphonsus but I do not believe there is a contradiction there necessarily.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #79 on: April 19, 2021, 03:14:04 PM »
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    • Quote
    What does his belief in implicit BOD do to your view about the necessity of the sacraments,

    It does nothing.  It means St Alphonsus (in this quote) was contrary to Trent, which all of you love to quote.  If you go bother reading Trent's entire chapter on justification, it explains VERY well, what is required.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #80 on: April 19, 2021, 03:18:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2021, 03:14:04 PM
    It does nothing.  It means St Alphonsus (in this quote) was contrary to Trent, which all of you love to quote.  If you go bother reading Trent's entire chapter on justification, it explains VERY well, what is required.

    St. Alphonsus being "contrary" to Trent - which came before him - means nothing?

    Only because you refuse to face squarely what it means: a saint and doctor of the Church held a view that - according to you and Lad - denies a dogma of the faith, i.e. the necessity of the sacraments for salvation.

    And despite that . . . he was not only canonized, but declared a "doctor" of the faith, of which there are very few.

    But that won't make you blink if it requires you to take your eye off your Feeneyite ball, will it, Pax?

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #81 on: April 19, 2021, 03:30:05 PM »
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    • Quote
    St. Alphonsus being "contrary" to Trent - which came before him - means nothing?
    Look, dude, you have a reading comprehension problem, which is half the battle, when it comes to debating with you. 
    .
    You asked what does St Alphonsus' view DO to the view of necessity of the sacraments.  I responded:  "It does nothing", which grammatically refers to "the necessity of the sacraments".  In other words, Ladislaus'/Trent's view of the necessity of the sacraments DOES NOT CHANGE, just because St Alphonsus says something different.  A doctrinal council > a saint...all day, everyday and twice on sundays.
    .

    Quote
    Only because you refuse to face squarely what it means: a saint and doctor of the Church held a view that - according to you and Lad - denies a dogma of the faith, i.e. the necessity of the sacraments for salvation.
    Yes, sometimes he 100% agreed with Trent, and sometimes he didn't.  He contradicted himself (or corrected himself).  A canonization does not mean the person is infallible, as no person is.
    .

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    And despite that . . . he was not only canonized, but declared a "doctor" of the faith, of which there are very few.
    The fact that you think this is some kind of important point, means you don't know what you're talking about.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #82 on: April 19, 2021, 03:45:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2021, 03:30:05 PM
    Look, dude, you have a reading comprehension problem, which is half the battle, when it comes to debating with you.
    .
    You asked what does St Alphonsus' view DO to the view of necessity of the sacraments.  I responded:  "It does nothing", which grammatically refers to "the necessity of the sacraments".  
    :)

    Ok. Let's try it this way: what does the upshot of St. Alphonsus's view of an implicit BOD mean as to what he thought about the necessity of the sacraments?

    Well, if he believed in implicit BOD - and there is no indication he didn't or that he retracted - then it means he did not believe in the necessity of the sacraments, which (according to you or Lad) requires either the reception of the sacrament or an explicit desire for the sacrament, of which one must be aware, a de fide doctrine.

    It means either St. Alphonsus was a manifest heretic scattering heresy in his writings and teachings as bishop, a "saint and doctor" who denied de fide dogma of the Church which was solemnly defined before his heresy, or else you and Lad are wrong.

    That may mean "nothing" to you - which is sad, very sad, either way.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #83 on: April 19, 2021, 03:47:01 PM »
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #84 on: April 19, 2021, 04:08:57 PM »
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    • Quote
    Ok. Let's try it this way: what does the upshot of St. Alphonsus's view of an implicit BOD mean as to what he thought about the necessity of the sacraments?
    It means that in a few of his quotes, he contradicted St Augustine, St Thomas, St Bellarmine and Trent.  Therefore, he was wrong. 
    .

    Quote
    Well, if he believed in implicit BOD - and there is no indication he didn't or that he retracted - then it means he did not believe in the necessity of the sacraments,
    Yes, in reading these short, "sound bite" comments from St Alphonsus, it seems he contradicted Trent.  Except most intelligent people write VOLUMES on certain topics (salvation being a common, complex topic), so to give the proper benefit of the doubt to a doctor the Church, we must presume that St Alphonsus' views can't be summarized into 3 sentences. 
    .

    Quote
    which (according to you or Lad) requires either the reception of the sacrament or an explicit desire for the sacrament, of which one must be aware, a de fide doctrine.
    This has nothing to do with Ladislaus or I.  It has to do with what St Augustine, St Thomas, St Bellarmine and Trent clearly wrote.
    .

    Quote
    It means either St. Alphonsus was a manifest heretic scattering heresy in his writings and teachings as bishop, a "saint and doctor" who denied de fide dogma of the Church which was solemnly defined before his heresy, or else you and Lad are wrong.
    If you believe that the "sound bite" quote of St Alphonsus is correct, then you would agree with V2. 
    .
    I believe that 1) it isn't his full view or 2) he was simply wrong.  I believe in the consistent views handed down by St Augustine, St Thomas, St Bellarmine and Trent.
    .
    Either way, according to your "gotcha test", a Doctor of the Church is in error. 
    3 Doctors + Trent vs 1 Doctor + V2.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #85 on: April 19, 2021, 04:51:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on April 19, 2021, 02:53:20 PM
    Same advice to you as Pax . . . focus.

    I'm quoting St. Alphonsus for crying out loud, or referring to Trent.

    Follow the discussion and please don't hit your Feeneyite "default" modernist, implicit BOD line/response. Read the St. Alphonsus quotes, what he said, and which I'm discussing.  
    Nothing to focus on, you are at the very least a poor communicator. I have no time to play child's games. Unless you spell out clearly what you want to say, there is no point in continuing this charade.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #86 on: April 19, 2021, 06:08:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2021, 04:08:57 PM

    .
    I believe that 1) it isn't his full view or 2) he was simply wrong.  

    And we know you won't bother to find out if it was 1).

    And if it's 2) he was not only wrong but a heretic . . . poor Alphonsus.

    Oh well. The Feenyite ball is in the air . . .

    Adios.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #87 on: April 19, 2021, 06:10:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on April 19, 2021, 04:51:25 PM
    I have no time to play child's games . .  .  there is no point in continuing this charade.

    Success: we do agree on something.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #88 on: April 19, 2021, 07:00:35 PM »
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    • Decem(Ir)rational,
    If St Alphonsus is correct (or, your understanding of him), then Trent is wrong.  
    .
    If St Alphonsus is correct, then St Augustine, St Thomas, St Bellarmine and many Church Fathers are wrong. 
    .
    If St Alphonsus is correct, then where is the historical, consistent, Traditional record to back him up? Doctrines do not appear out of thin air...they MUST be traced to Apostolic Times.  So where is the link, across 17 centuries?  
    .
    The contrary view, that of explicit desire for baptism and to enter the church, is readily shown and quite consistent, especially in Trent. 
    .
    St Alphonsus died during the time of the French Revolution and in the height of Protestantism.  Are you saying he was immune from all errors of the day?  Is any human soul immune from the errors of his day?  No
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: False BOD is Foundational to VatII
    « Reply #89 on: April 19, 2021, 11:28:53 PM »
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    • Decem, you're completely (and it would seem, deliberately, since this has been pointed out) distorting the opinion of St. Alphonsus.  St. Alphonsus, as quoted by Last Trad, and even by pro-BoD-zealot XavierSem, clearly held that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In terms of his allowing for Rewarder God theory to be considered a possible opinion (that is what the term "probable" means in theology, that it has some possibility of being true) was simply wrong and contradicts a ruling from the Holy Office about which he appeared to be unaware.  This requirement for explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were taught and believed universally by the entire Church for nearly 1600 years, and if that doesn't qualify as an infallible teaching of the OUM, then there's no such thing as an infallible teaching of the OUM.  Of course, the infallibility of the OUM had not yet been defined, which is why he was mistaken on this point.  So he was mistaken in not denouncing Rewarder God theory as heresy.  It is in fact heresy by every theological standard.  It is not heresy not to assign the proper theological note to something ... just a mistake.  He didn't actually believe in Rewarder God theory himself.

    As I've pointed out a dozen times now, it is Rewarder God theory which I denounce as heretical.  I have never denounced BoD as heretical, but rather its false extension to infidels, those without explicit Catholic faith.

    So you distort the teaching of St. Alphonsus, and distort my position at the same time.  Even XavierSem acknowledges what St. Alphonsus taught about this matter, and agrees that the requirement of explicit faith in these core mysteries is definable as dogma.
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