Author Topic: False BOD is Foundational to VatII (Read 10381 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2014, 08:26:10 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: bowler
There you have it, right from the "horse’s mouth!" Indeed, there was a "setting of the stage" to destroy the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. It was the modernists’ prime target!

Even the present Catechism of the Catholic Church (which, by the way, does not even reference Karl Rahner in a single footnote, but which, instead, directly quotes, by name, from Saint Thomas Aquinas at least seven times with several dozen more footnotes) teaches that at least some individuals have been lost:

Quote
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. 479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": 480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." 481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

http://www.kofc.org/en/catechism/

Good point. But it does not mention individuals by name as some Feeneyites do.

For the record as you may know the vast majority of quotes from C"C"C quote from V2 or after. And there pre-v2 quotes are sometimes misused.

JPaul · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2014, 08:26:58 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
That you only disagree in the wording is finally some truth from you. The only difference between you and Abp. Lefebvre and his quote is that he was honest and sincere and wrote with no subterfuge, and thus he wrote that people are saved outside the Catholic Church. You being a sly snake would never say that they are outside of the Church (which they most certainly are), since it would clearly contradict the dogmas of EENS.

No, you are a snake, and you seek teachers according to you own desires, teachers that teach the same as Abp. Lefebvre, however, do not say that they are outside of the Church. So, what I said what accurate, for you believe exactly what Abp. L wrote. Because of people like you, we have Vatican II.

When he says "outside the Church," he means actual membership, not a denial of the necessity of belonging to the Church nor a denial of the dogma.

So, now outside of the Church does not mean outside of the Church? Let me add that to the list of all the other dogmas that you say should not be understood as they are written.

No idiot, it is semantics. One must use words to convey ideas.

That is correct, and that is why the Church uses precise and chosen words to define what is to be understood in Her dogmatic pronouncements on Exclusive Salvation as found in the Catholic Church. So that there can be no misunderstanding of the idea which She has proposed and are to be known and understood by those words which She has used alone.

bowler · « **Reply #27 on:** February 11, 2014, 11:51:54 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Dear Lover of Truth,

What has done the most damage to souls in the history of the Church is your one hair away from universal salvation belief, which is the common belief of even "traditionalist" sedevacantes persons like Fr. Cekada, CMRI, SSPius V, who are foaming liberals when it comes to BOD, for they TEACH that people are saved regularly every day by their false religion, and that although they don't know it, they are Catholics.

This belief has done the most damage to souls in the history of the Church because it is foundational to Vatican II's teachings on ecuмenism and religious freedom, which IS what Vatican II was all about. Vatican II has done the most damage to the Church of all heresies, and your one hair away from universal salvation belief is foundational to VatII. The reality is that people like you are the root cause of Vatican II, and you don't even know it or see it.

Quote
Bishop Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976):
“We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it...”

SJB · « **Reply #28 on:** February 11, 2014, 11:59:30 AM »

Quote from: J.Paul

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
That you only disagree in the wording is finally some truth from you. The only difference between you and Abp. Lefebvre and his quote is that he was honest and sincere and wrote with no subterfuge, and thus he wrote that people are saved outside the Catholic Church. You being a sly snake would never say that they are outside of the Church (which they most certainly are), since it would clearly contradict the dogmas of EENS.

No, you are a snake, and you seek teachers according to you own desires, teachers that teach the same as Abp. Lefebvre, however, do not say that they are outside of the Church. So, what I said what accurate, for you believe exactly what Abp. L wrote. Because of people like you, we have Vatican II.

When he says "outside the Church," he means actual membership, not a denial of the necessity of belonging to the Church nor a denial of the dogma.

So, now outside of the Church does not mean outside of the Church? Let me add that to the list of all the other dogmas that you say should not be understood as they are written.

No idiot, it is semantics. One must use words to convey ideas.

That is correct, and that is why the Church uses precise and chosen words to define what is to be understood in Her dogmatic pronouncements on Exclusive Salvation as found in the Catholic Church. So that there can be no misunderstanding of the idea which She has proposed and are to be known and understood by those words which She has used alone.

Do you think Lefebvre was giving a definition?

Also, don't you think the actual context of what was being defined or condemned is important in understanding the decrees?

Remember, the dogma is EENS, which is outside the Church there is no salvation. Be precise, because it doesn't say actual membership, it says one must not be outside.

bowler · « **Reply #29 on:** February 11, 2014, 12:37:59 PM »

Sure SJB, Abp. Lefebvre should not be understood as he wrote it, and all the dogmas on EENS and baptism should not be understood as they are written, and maybe you and I should not be understood as we write. And maybe what should not be understood as it is written should not be understood as it is written.

"There was once a cat that fell asleep and dreamed that he was a man dreaming that he was a cat, and when he woke up, he did not know whether he was a man or a cat".