Dear Lover of Truth,

What has done the most damage to souls in the history of the Church is your one hair away from universal salvation belief, which is the common belief of even "traditionalist" sedevacantes persons like Fr. Cekada, CMRI, SSPius V, who are foaming liberals when it comes to BOD, for they TEACH that people are saved regularly every day by their false religion, and that although they don't know it, they are Catholics.

This belief has done the most damage to souls in the history of the Church  because it is foundational to Vatican II's teachings on ecuмenism and religious freedom, which IS what Vatican II was all about. Vatican II has done the most damage to the Church of all heresies, and your one hair away from universal salvation belief is foundational to VatII. The reality is that people like you are the root cause of Vatican II, and you don't even know it or see it.

Bishop Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976):
“We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it...”

Abp. L in that quote and others teaches word for word what you believe and expound here. And it is what the CMRI, SSPV, SSPX, and all the other "tradtionalists teach.

People like YOU are the reason why we had Vatican II.

Quote from: bowler

Abp. L in that quote and others teaches word for word what you believe and expound here. And it is what the CMRI, SSPV, SSPX, and all the other "tradtionalists teach.

People like YOU are the reason why we had Vatican II.

Incorrect.

Sorry, Bowler is spot on.

Dear Lover of Truth,

What has done the most damage to souls in the history of the Church is your one hair away from universal salvation belief, which is the common belief of even "traditionalist" sedevacantes persons like Fr. Cekada, CMRI, SSPius V, who are foaming liberals when it comes to BOD, for they TEACH that people are saved regularly every day by their false religion, and that although they don't know it, they are Catholics.

This belief has done the most damage to souls in the history of the Church  because it is foundational to Vatican II's teachings on ecuмenism and religious freedom, which IS what Vatican II was all about. Vatican II has done the most damage to the Church of all heresies, and your one hair away from universal salvation belief is foundational to VatII. The reality is that people like you are the root cause of Vatican II, and you don't even know it or see it.

Quote

Bishop Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976):
“We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it...”

Well said,  Bowler  :rahrah:

From another thread, here is Lover of Truth admitting that what Abp. Lefebvre believes is what he believes:

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: bowler

Dear LOT,

What has done the most damage in the history of the Church is your one hair away from universal salvation belief, which is the common belief of even "traditionalist" sedevacantes persons like Fr. Cekada, CMRI, SSPius V, who are foaming liberals when it comes to BOD, for they TEACH that people are saved regularly every day by their false religion, and that although they don't know it, they are Catholics.

This belief is foundational to Vatican II's teachings on ecuмenism and religious freedom, which IS what Vatican II was all about. People like you are the root cause of Vatican II, and you don't see it?

Quote

Bishop Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976):
“We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it...”

I do not agree with the above wording.  But I believe I understand what he was trying to say.

The Church's teaching on BOB/D is not a hair away from universal salvation.

To say it is possible for non-members to be saved (so long as all the per-requisites are fulfilled) is different than saying everyone is saved no matter what.

That you only disagree in the wording is finally some truth from you. The only difference between you and Abp. Lefebvre and his quote is that he was honest and sincere and wrote with no subterfuge, and thus he wrote that people are saved outside the Catholic Church. You being a sly snake would never say that they are outside of the Church (which they most certainly are), since it would clearly contradict the dogmas of EENS.

No, you are a snake, and you seek teachers according to you own desires, teachers that teach the same as Abp. Lefebvre, however, do not say that they are outside of the Church. So, what I said what accurate, for you believe exactly what Abp. L wrote. Because of people like you, we have Vatican II.

Everything I write is as CLEAR as day. Everyone knows what I believe, it is even written on my signature on every posting.

It is you who is works in the shadows, never clearly revealing what you believe.

Abp. Lefebvre did not work in the shadows, he spoke clearly, and we see in his quote above the truth about your belief, that you believe that those outside of the Church can be saved. You post endlessly Fr. Fenton's 1950's book length explanations, efforts, to say the same without saying that they are outside of the Church (which they are). It is you who work in the shadows.

"One can't lie, even to save the World".


Your subterfuge is just another form of a lie.

That you only disagree in the wording is finally some truth from you. The only difference between you and Abp. Lefebvre and his quote is that he was honest and sincere and wrote with no subterfuge, and thus he wrote that people are saved outside the Catholic Church. You being a sly snake would never say that they are outside of the Church (which they most certainly are), since it would clearly contradict the dogmas of EENS.

No, you are a snake, and you seek teachers according to you own desires, teachers that teach the same as Abp. Lefebvre, however, do not say that they are outside of the Church. So, what I said what accurate, for you believe exactly what Abp. L wrote. Because of people like you, we have Vatican II.

What you fail to realize here (because you are stupid and imprecise) is that you admit Lefebvre is straightforward and honest, yet he nowhere denies the dogma of EENS.

When he says "outside the Church," he means actual membership, not a denial of the necessity of belonging to the Church nor a denial of the dogma.

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler

That you only disagree in the wording is finally some truth from you. The only difference between you and Abp. Lefebvre and his quote is that he was honest and sincere and wrote with no subterfuge, and thus he wrote that people are saved outside the Catholic Church. You being a sly snake would never say that they are outside of the Church (which they most certainly are), since it would clearly contradict the dogmas of EENS.

No, you are a snake, and you seek teachers according to you own desires, teachers that teach the same as Abp. Lefebvre, however, do not say that they are outside of the Church. So, what I said what accurate, for you believe exactly what Abp. L wrote. Because of people like you, we have Vatican II.

What you fail to realize here (because you are stupid and imprecise)  

There you go again using insulting remarks. A gentleman should never say something online that he would not say face to face. Would you call me stupid and imprecise if we were face to face?

Yes, I would. What you promote here is criminal.

I think Matthew should ban you for promoting non-Catholic ideas here.