Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Faith of Desire  (Read 5241 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Faith of Desire
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 09:04:47 AM »
Quote
We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de ####o non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality [“non ita stricte”] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from baptism of blood — translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.

It is clear that martyrdom is not a sacrament, because it is not an action instituted by Christ, and for the same reason neither was the Baptism of John a sacrament: it did not sanctify a man, but only prepared him for the coming of Christ.  
(Alphonsus De Liguori)

Faith of Desire
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 09:05:55 AM »
Quote
We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de ####o non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality [“non ita stricte”] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from baptism of blood — translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.

It is clear that martyrdom is not a sacrament, because it is not an action instituted by Christ, and for the same reason neither was the Baptism of John a sacrament: it did not sanctify a man, but only prepared him for the coming of Christ.  
(Alphonsus De Liguori)


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Faith of Desire
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 09:53:44 AM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Oops I misread your title.  

But "faith of desire" is a novel term and not used by the Church when she teaches BOD.


Correct.  This is my term to distinguish your heretical views from what you claim the Church teaches.  It is in fact YOUR IDEAS that are novel and heretical, and that's why I am deliberately distinguishing them from what the Church teaches.  I am granting for the sake of argument only that the Church teaches BoD.  So please don't take this thread off the rails and make it yet another BoD thread.  I am GRANTING in the context of this thread that the Church teaches BoD.  Granting that Church teaches BoD, you yourself do not hold that, but rather to the heretical Faith of Desire.

You keep arguing BoD as if by showing that the Church teaches BoD that you prove that non-Catholics can be saved.

I pointed out in the list of sources cited by Ambrose as proving that the Church teaches BoD that each and every one of these is referring SPECIFICALLY to CATECHUMENS and that your heretical extension of BoD beyond catechumens has never been taught or endorsed by the Church.

So, for instance, you cite the 1917 Code of Canon Law ... dishonestly ... as somehow proving your claim that non-Catholics can be saved, when the 1917 Code of Canon Law provision you cite speaks only of "CATECHUMENS" (uses the term explicitly).  As does every other source cited by Ambrose.

It is you who twist BoD beyond what the Church can be seen as having endorsed ... into your heretical notion that no-Catholics can be saved when the Church has taught dogmatically that THEY CANNOT.

Faith of Desire
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 09:56:54 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Oops I misread your title.  

But "faith of desire" is a novel term and not used by the Church when she teaches BOD.


Correct.  This is my term to distinguish your heretical views from what you claim the Church teaches.  It is in fact YOUR IDEAS that are novel and heretical, and that's why I am deliberately distinguishing them from what the Church teaches.  I am granting for the sake of argument only that the Church teaches BoD.  So please don't take this thread off the rails and make it yet another BoD thread.  I am GRANTING in the context of this thread that the Church teaches BoD.  Granting that Church teaches BoD, you yourself do not hold that, but rather to the heretical Faith of Desire.

You keep arguing BoD as if by showing that the Church teaches BoD that you prove that non-Catholics can be saved.

I pointed out in the list of sources cited by Ambrose as proving that the Church teaches BoD that each and every one of these is referring SPECIFICALLY to CATECHUMENS and that your heretical extension of BoD beyond catechumens has never been taught or endorsed by the Church.

So, for instance, you cite the 1917 Code of Canon Law ... dishonestly ... as somehow proving your claim that non-Catholics can be saved, when the 1917 Code of Canon Law provision you cite speaks only of "CATECHUMENS" (uses the term explicitly).  As does every other source cited by Ambrose.

It is you who twist BoD beyond what the Church can be seen as having endorsed ... into your heretical notion that no-Catholics can be saved when the Church has taught dogmatically that THEY CANNOT.


Let me save you some time Ladislaus:  I say now, have always said, and will always say that there is no salvation outside the Church.  Non-Catholics cannot be saved.

I will also say, that your (and those like you) attempt to use EENS against Baptism of Desire is the source of your error.  


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Faith of Desire
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 09:58:02 AM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth
No one claims it is possible to be saved apart from a supernatural faith and perfect charity.


But you are claiming that this supernatural faith and charity can be had by heretics, schismatics, Muslims, Jews, infidels, etc. ... as if it can be somehow infused only on the basis of right conscience and good will, yada yada yada.

So you argue that since the Church teaches BoD that heretics, schismatics, Muslims, Jews, infidels, pagans can be saved. This DESPITE the Church's dogmatic definitions to the contrary.  And every authoritative passage cited by Ambrose refers only to CATECHUMENS.

It is in claming that heretics, schismatics, Mulsims, Jews, infidels, and pagans can be saved that you are in fact a heretic.