Author Topic: Faith of Desire (Read 5219 times)

SJB · « **Reply #35 on:** January 27, 2014, 11:59:09 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

I titled this thread "Faith of Desire" because that's primarily what's at issue here. You dishonestly cite sources for Baptism of Desire as if they promoted your heretical notions regarding Faith of Desire when they don't. It's no different than when BoDers cite BoB Fathers as proof for BoD when even a lot of those explicitly reject BoD (saying that martyrdom is the ONLY exception to the law of Baptism).

Your 'faith of desire" is merely a reference to a minority opinion saying the belief in the Mysteries of the trinity and the incarnation need not be explicit. Even those who hold to this minority opinion cannot say supernatural faith isn't required or is found in a merely natural act.

There is only one justification, one sanctifying grace, one state of grace, one faith, one baptism. If one admits a Catechumen can be saved without being a formal member (as defined by Pope Pius XII) then others could possibly be joined to the Church in the same manner as the Catechumen.

This is why some "feeneyites" believe they must reject even the possiblility of the salvation for Catechumens.

Cantarella · « **Reply #36 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:03:42 PM »

Ignorance is a punishment from God. The withholding of grace, which leads to both spiritual blindness in this life and eternal damnation in the next life, is the result of sin. Humans are born guilty of Original Sin. The Church infallibly defined at the ecuмenical councils of Lyons and Florence, that the guilt of original sin suffices for damnation in hell. Through Baptism we receive the grace of the remission of original sin and washing away of its stain upon our souls.

“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished moreover with disparate punishments. […] They will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Florence)

The Invincibly Ignorant are damned at least for the guilt of Original Sin. They are justly deprived of the only means of salvation, which is membership in the Holy Catholic Church (visibly, explicitly,....). They have neither innocence nor excuse in this matter. Their ignorance of the Divine Faith is a punishment for the original sin. It is the will of God, and it suffices for damnation.

Christ Lord said, "He who does not believe is damned already" (St. John 3) ‘for all have sinned’ (Romans 3), at least ‘in Adam’ (Romans 5). Knowledge of the only salvific Holy Catholic Church is a grace from God. We all are conceived damned for the original sin and will go to hell unless we die a Catholic in state of grace. Nobody is worthy of the Gospel or has any claim to receive it. Outside the Catholic Church, all humanity is cursed, to this day, with both physical and spiritual death, decay and corruption.

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for Baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #37 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:05:28 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Ladislaus
I titled this thread "Faith of Desire" because that's primarily what's at issue here. You dishonestly cite sources for Baptism of Desire as if they promoted your heretical notions regarding Faith of Desire when they don't. It's no different than when BoDers cite BoB Fathers as proof for BoD when even a lot of those explicitly reject BoD (saying that martyrdom is the ONLY exception to the law of Baptism).

Your 'faith of desire" is merely a reference to a minority opinion saying the belief in the Mysteries of the trinity and the incarnation need not be explicit. Even those who hold to this minority opinion cannot say supernatural faith isn't required or is found in a merely natural act.

There is only one justification, one sanctifying grace, one state of grace, one faith, one baptism. If one admits a Catechumen can be saved without being a formal member (as defined by Pope Pius XII) then others could possibly be joined to the Church in the same manner as the Catechumen.

This is why some "feeneyites" believe they must reject even the possiblility of the salvation for Catechumens.

Each line of your above response is very well stated. I bolded the part that I liked in particular.

For the record I neither hold the minority or majority opinion but will accept either opinion whenever it is defined. I am open to the minority opinion however. I would be interested in who holds the minority opinion and who holds the more common opinion. This is an area where I am foggy. I was not sure there was such a huge gap between the two. Please let me know anything you know about this SJB. Thank you.

crossbro · « **Reply #38 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:07:07 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Which dictionary do you get your definition from? It is impossible not to be aware of certain truths through no fault of your own?

What is your definition of truly ignorant?

What is your definition of invincibly ignorant?

Some people believe that invincibly ignorant equates to being stubborn.

To me saying that invincible ignorance exists is to deny the omnipotence of God.

After all, it is scripture that it is God who chooses us and not we who choose God.

I do not mean this sarcastically but I am interested in the actual definition of invincible ignorance as opposed to what some people think.

I believe I fully understand your point. If people are ignorant they deserve to be be otherwise God would not let them stay ignorant. Correct?

My point is there is little room for the term 'invinvible" in a world created by an "Omni-potent" God. Scripture says that we cannot posses an understanding of God's will. To have to over-embellish to make things look pretty shows a lack of faith in God.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #39 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:14:07 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Ignorance is a punishment from God. The withholding of grace, which leads to both spiritual blindness in this life and eternal damnation in the next life, is the result of sin. Humans are born guilty of Original Sin. The Church infallibly defined at the ecuмenical councils of Lyons and Florence, that the guilt of original sin suffices for damnation in hell. Baptism allows the remission of original sin and washing away of its stain upon the human soul.

“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished moreover with disparate punishments. […] They will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Florence)

The Invincibly Ignorant are damned at least for the guilt of Original Sin. They are justly deprived of the only means of salvation, which is membership in the Holy Catholic Church (visibly, explicitly,....). They have neither innocence nor excuse in this matter. Their ignorance of the Divine Faith is a punishment for the original sin. It is the will of God, and it suffices for damnation.

Christ Lord said, "He who does not believe is damned already" (St. John 3) ‘for all have sinned’ (Romans 3), at least ‘in Adam’ (Romans 5). Faith is a grace from God. We all are conceived damned for the original sin and will go to hell unless we die a Catholic in state of grace. Nobody is worthy of the Gospel or has any claim to receive it. Outside the Catholic Church, all humanity is cursed, to this day, with both physical and spiritual death, decay and corruption.

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for Baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’

Quote

Humans are born guilty of Original Sin. The Church infallibly defined at the ecuмenical councils of Lyons and Florence, that the guilt of original sin suffices for damnation in hell. Baptism allows the remission of original sin and washing away of its stain upon the human soul.

Agreed.

Quote

The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished moreover with disparate punishments. […] They will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Agreed.

The rest is a concocted theology which contradicts the teaching of the Church.

Quote

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for Baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined

I am not sure Augustine is saying what you wish him to say here.

Some He has predestined to Baptism but not salvation. Some He has predestined to Salvation but not water Baptism. Some he has predestined to neither. Some he has predestined to both. Augustine was not a Calvinist. And if he taught here what you prefer him to teach it would not fit in with what has been taught everywhere throughout the history of the Church on BOD including what Augustine taught himself.