Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?  (Read 7591 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46089
  • Reputation: +27150/-5013
  • Gender: Male
Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
« Reply #120 on: November 26, 2019, 07:45:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Technically such children, before the age of reason, are in fact members of the visible Church. The sacrament is a visible sign, and they are truly incorporated into the Mystical Body.

    Upon reaching the age of reason, with public profession of a different faith it is then they are no longer numbered among the Faithful.

    Yes, this fits with the criteria for membership in the Church.

    1) Baptismal character 2) profession of the true faith and 3) subjection to the Supreme Pontiff

    Those before the age of reason are exempted for any explicit profession of faith, since they don't have the reason to do it.  And, by virtue of the Baptismal character, they are in fact subject to the Holy Father until they assert their schismatic reason against it.

    Offline ascanio1

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 400
    • Reputation: +53/-33
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #121 on: November 26, 2019, 11:02:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ask any Traditional Catholic priest and he'll tell you the same thing.  You are NOT bound by this oath, and in fact have an obligation to BREAK the oath, just as you would have an obligation to break your oath to murder someone.  Simply confess the fact that you made this oath in the first place, but other than that there's absolutely nothing to this oath.
    Last Sunday I did exactly as you recommended and I said that I would.


    1. My dioceses parish priest told me not to worry, all was ok and I did not need to confess as no sin was committed and I was free to keep or not the promise as only God would judge my actions.


    2. My SSPX priest:
    (i) it is a sin (*) and I should confess it. The sin hurts Jesus, under three counts:
    a) pride (I have such a high esteem of myself that I think that I can decide on matters of souls);
    b) sloth (I was too lazy to fight the battle to save my wife's soul);
    c) venial sin of weakness, because I gave up.
    (ii) the promise is null because there was a defect of will on two counts and a defect of capacity.
    Defect of will, firstly, because of my ignorance concerning souls caused me to err believing that I could make such a promise, in the first place. The second count was on force majeur: I resisted for three years and I would not have created a family and conceived a daughter that I would raise in the Catholic Faith, as I then also insisted for.
    There was a also a defect of capacity: I was unable to enter into the contract of evil deed as God rejects prayers for evil.
    (iii) the Catholic marriage will remain valid even if the Orthodox permission should be revoked, because our Church does not recognize the authority of other religions over the sacraments.

    My priest reduced my penance considering that the sin was SUBJECTIVELY mitigated by the fact that I committed it in good faith (ignorance) and for a good cause (creating a Catholic Family).

    The funny part of the incident was that when I told my wife (who came a second time to Mass) she joked about it: "You men always need someone else to tell you what to do..."

    (*) but for a different reason. Not because I am obliged to pray for her conversion, as you suggested, but because it is not charitable to not try to save someone you love (he made the example of watching a loved one being run over by a car and not rushing to pull him away).
    Tommaso
    + IHSV


    Offline ascanio1

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 400
    • Reputation: +53/-33
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #122 on: February 04, 2020, 12:41:50 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Look, if I came to believe that non-Catholics can be saved, then I immediately repent of my rejection of Vatican II.  In light of that, then absolutely everything in Vatican II makes perfect sense.  If that is Traditonal teaching, as many Traditional Catholics assert, then Vatican II is perfectly Traditional.

    This is why EENS is so crucial.  Everything about whether I am a Traditional Catholic depends on it.  Matthew dismissed the idea as being of little consequence to Traditional Catholicism; I contend that it is everything.  If non-Catholics are saved, then they are in the Church, and then Vatican II ecclesiology is in fact a profound expression of this reality.

    and

    « Reply #43 on: November 20, 2019, 11:50:56 AM »

    I'd love to interrogate the Traditional Catholics who ... 1) reject Vatican II ecclesiology as erroneous or even heretical and 2) believe that non-Catholics can be saved.

    MAJOR:  There can be no salvation outside the Church.
    MINOR:  Non-Catholics, including infidels (Hindus, Muslims, Jews) can be saved.
    CONCLUSION:  Non-Catholics, including infidels, can be inside the Church.

    Then please explain how this differs from Vatican II ecclesiology, where the Church subsists of Catholics but can also include non-Catholics.

    I am re-reading this thread, after a few months, and these two posts are the ones that makes the most sense to me.

    I have returned to the Faith because I recently had a baby girl that I want to raise correctly to offer to her soul the best chances to be saved.

    If EENS is not a dogma and souls can be saved outside the Church, then my best bet for my daughter, would be to let her grow in perfect ignorance! This is the very absurd but logic consequence of saying that souls can be saved outside the Church simply by being a good person! Why would anyone attempt to follow our Faith that is so difficult to adhere to perfectly. One would be better of in invincible ignorance.

    I have come to follow the FSSPX, mostly thank to this platform, but my FSSPX priest is NOT in agreement, and he teaches that souls CAN be saved outside the Church (albeit he thinks that while this is theoretically possible it is, in practice, in real life, practically impossible; his basic tenant being that we must believe that souls can be saved outside the Church because God is ALMIGHTY).

    Another FSSPX priest brought to bear the the example of the good thief on the cross who died outside the Church.
    Tommaso
    + IHSV

    Offline Immaculatam Hostiam

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 69
    • Reputation: +38/-50
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #123 on: February 04, 2020, 01:11:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • according to "Bishop" Barron of the Sect of Paul VI, "even atheists of good will can be saved"




    Offline LeDeg

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 777
    • Reputation: +534/-134
    • Gender: Male
    • I am responsible only to God and history.
    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #124 on: February 04, 2020, 02:00:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  

    Another FSSPX priest brought to bear the the example of the good thief on the cross who died outside the Church.
    The obvious response to this would be there wasn't any Church at that moment, hence it wouldn't apply.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline ascanio1

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 400
    • Reputation: +53/-33
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #125 on: February 05, 2020, 02:02:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The obvious response to this would be there wasn't any Church at that moment, hence it wouldn't apply.
    His perspective was different. The motive being not the absence of the Church but, rather, God's omnipotence.
    Tommaso
    + IHSV

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11959
    • Reputation: +7516/-2254
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #126 on: February 05, 2020, 04:09:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Good Thief, St Dismas, was saved because he fulfilled the requirements of salvation under the Old Law - 1) Faith in the Coming Redeemer and 2) contrition for sins.  He expressed both of these to Christ, as he was dying next to Him.  The New Law, and the Church, were not established until Pentecost.