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Author Topic: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?  (Read 7586 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2019, 01:13:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 01:06:36 PM
    My OP pertains only to baptized Christians, who are outside the Catholic Church.
    My satirical posting has the dogmas that pertain specifically to the EO, for they are at least schismatics and in some cases even heretics:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #16 on: November 19, 2019, 01:25:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 19, 2019, 12:20:34 PM
    Schism is a mortal sin, and whoever dies in that sin, it is the same as it is with any other mortal sin(s), they *will* go to hell forever. While they *might* have less culpability then some others, they, like us all, will be judged according to God's word, His teachings and His laws - all of which He left with His Church which is the only place to find truth and live according to it - which is why outside of that Church, there is no salvation. They certainly will not be saved according to their own idea of what they determine or think should be acceptable to God.
    In another thread (*) I was taught that, in order for me to sin, I need to be aware/know, without negligence, that what I am doing is a sin.
    Believing that Rome is without a Pope is schismatic if God/Truth determine that the Pope is legitimate. If the Pope is legitimate and, in good faith, after great studies, I come to believe that the Pope is not legitimate, then I am not aware of my schism, therefore, I am not in sin.
    If the Pope and the Catholic Church are legitimate and, in good faith, after great studies, I come to believe that the Pope and the Catholic Church are not legitimate, then I am not aware of my schism, therefore, I am not in sin.
    If that teaching regarding awareness and knowledge of sin is accurate, then, someone who believes, without negligence, that the Orthodox religion is the true faith, is not in sin.

    (*) I asked if I would die in eternal sin if I followed a schismatic doctrine and participated in schismatic Mass, Eucharist, etc.

    However, I question this logic because if ignorance of sin is an "alternative" road to salvation, then why send his only Son on earth to die to save us from our Sins? Let us all be ignorant Jews (or muslims, or Hindu, etc.) and be saved...
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #17 on: November 19, 2019, 01:28:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 19, 2019, 01:13:08 PM
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
    Was this ex-cathedra?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 01:38:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 01:28:52 PM
    Was this ex-cathedra?
    All of the quotes in my satire are dogmas, ex-cathedra, that one is from a  Council, like the Council of Trent, it is the Council of Florence
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 01:41:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 19, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
    All of the quotes in my satire are dogmas, ex-catherdra, that one is from a  Council, like the Council of Trent, it is the Council of Florence
    Then the matter is settled and we can close the thread. "No salvation outside the Catholic Church" is a dogma.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 02:21:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
    However, I question this logic because if ignorance of sin is an "alternative" road to salvation, then why send his only Son on earth to die to save us from our Sins? Let us all be ignorant Jews (or muslims, or Hindu, etc.) and be saved...
    That's right, you are right to question this logic because by that logic, ignorance is not only bliss - ignorance is rewarded with eternal bliss. 

    "What you don't know won't hurt you" is a convenient saying for the living, but not at all for the dying.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #21 on: November 19, 2019, 02:27:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 01:41:31 PM
    Then the matter is settled and we can close the thread. "No salvation outside the Catholic Church" is a dogma.
    EENS is known as the "Thrice Defined Dogma".

    1) “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

    2) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

    3) “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #22 on: November 19, 2019, 03:05:08 PM »
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    • Why another BOD thread, why? Use the search function and look at the hundreds of other threads posted on this subject. Most folks who post here frequently have given their opinions on the question, so no need to beat a dead horse
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #23 on: November 19, 2019, 04:08:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 19, 2019, 02:21:36 PM
    That's right, you are right to question this logic because by that logic, ignorance is not only bliss - ignorance is rewarded with eternal bliss.
    Mind you, my wife rightly commented that God has His own logic and we cannot determine Truth using logic. If logic were a legitimate tool to determine truth, then the resurrection would be impossible.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #24 on: November 19, 2019, 04:14:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 19, 2019, 02:27:17 PM
    EENS is known as the "Thrice Defined Dogma".

    1) “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

    2) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

    3) “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
    I did not know this. I am glad to learn it. 
    But, if so, why was Father Leonard Feeney excommunicated?
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #25 on: November 19, 2019, 04:16:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on November 19, 2019, 03:05:08 PM
    Why another BOD thread, why? Use the search function and look at the hundreds of other threads posted on this subject. Most folks who post here frequently have given their opinions on the question, so no need to beat a dead horse
    Apologies, of course you are right in principle. But when I tried to post on a previous thread, an automated message mentioned that the thread was very old and recommended that I create a new thread.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #26 on: November 19, 2019, 06:05:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 04:14:44 PM
    I did not know this. I am glad to learn it.
    But, if so, why was Father Leonard Feeney excommunicated?
     The doctrinal issue was not the cause of the excommunication. After that, it gets a bit complicated. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #27 on: November 19, 2019, 06:19:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 04:14:44 PM
    I did not know this. I am glad to learn it.
    But, if so, why was Father Leonard Feeney excommunicated?

    To add more detail to DR's post, Father Feeney was summoned to Rome on account of his conflict with Cardinal Cushing.  But he was not told why.  According to Canon Law, he had the right to be informed of the charges so he could prepare a defense.  So he refused to show up, feeling as though he was going to be railroaded, and so he was excommunicated.
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #28 on: November 19, 2019, 06:48:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 19, 2019, 06:19:42 PM
    To add more detail to DR's post, Father Feeney was summoned to Rome on account of his conflict with Cardinal Cushing.  But he was not told why.  According to Canon Law, he had the right to be informed of the charges so he could prepare a defense.  So he refused to show up, feeling as though he was going to be railroaded, and so he was excommunicated.
    And to add more detail: The only issue at hand then was EENS. Father Feeney had not yet spoken of BOD because the modernists had not spoken of it. When Father and the Center students were punished it was not over the BOD issue; that was to come into the public realm later on and it was the modernists who used it first in order to compromise the Dogma of Faith which Father Feeney was fighting for. 
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #29 on: November 19, 2019, 11:44:19 PM »
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    • From the Baltimore Catechism;
    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
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