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Author Topic: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?  (Read 7594 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2019, 03:42:45 PM »
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  • Jorge Bergoglio would condemn you for this.  Bergoglio's definition of "evangelization" positively precludes attempting to convert, which he calls "prosletyzing".
    And he's plainly wrong about that.  We shouldn't play games with people's souls, hoping for the best possibilities of which we are not certain. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #91 on: November 23, 2019, 07:29:28 PM »
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  • It shocked me when I first read this, but yeah, you're possibly right. Although some would distinguish the two. Anyway, an instruction on the Holy Office from the same: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-the-ecuмenical-movement-2070

    Oh, I don't think there's any doubt that he would condemn someone who was trying to "prosletyze" (aka convert).

    What is this New Evangelization, promoted esepcially by John Paul II?  Well, it's where the old actual Catholic evangelization converges with Religious Liberty and the New Ecclessiology.  Prosletyzing is therefore wrong, and there's no such thing as a binary conversion from someone who was outside the Church to someone who's now inside the Church, but rather it's drawing people who are already in the Church closer to the "fullness" of truth.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #92 on: November 23, 2019, 07:53:22 PM »
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  • John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio,

    Quote
    The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

    For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #93 on: November 23, 2019, 10:07:52 PM »
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  • John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio,
    I guess I just see such a big difference between the *way* Archbishop Lefebvre conveyed this kind of idea, and the way JPII conveys it.  it also shows, in terms of their actions, their attitude toward society, ecuмenism, and religious liberty.  Maybe its not technically consistent, I'm not sure.  But there seems to be a big attitudinal gap there

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #94 on: November 23, 2019, 10:37:18 PM »
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  • Quote
        But there are other truths in the Catholic religion which are not formally revealed by God but which nevertheless are so connected with revealed truth that their denial would lead to the rejection of God's word, and concerning these the Church, the guardian as well as the teacher of the revealed word, exercises an infallible teaching authority. "Dogmatic facts,"2 theological conclusions, doctrines - whether of faith or morals - involved in the legislation of the Church, in the condemnation of books or persons, in the canonisation of saints, in the approbation of religious orders - all these are matters coming within the infallible competence of the Church, all these are things which every Catholic is bound to believe when the Church pronounces upon them in the exercise of her supreme and infallible teaching office. He accepts them not by divine-Catholic faith, for God has not revealed them, but by ecclesiastical faith, by an assent which is based upon the infallible authority of the divinely appointed Church. Theologians, however, point out that even ecclesiastical faith is at least mediately divine, since it is God who has revealed that His Church is to be believed: "He that heareth you heareth me."
    Quote

    Already it is apparent that the question: "Must I believe it?" is equivocal. It may mean: "Is this a dogma of faith which I must believe under pain of heresy?" or it may mean: "Is it a doctrine which I must believe by ecclesiastical faith, under pain of being branded as
    temerarious or proximate to heresy?" But in either case the answer is: "You must believe it." The only difference lies between the precise motive of assent in either case, or the precise censure which may attach to disbelief. The question thus resolves itself into an investigation whether the doctrine under discussion belongs to either of these categories. And here again there is the possibility of undue restriction.

      The Vatican Council has defined that "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgement or by her ordinary and universal teaching, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed."
    3 What is liable to be overlooked is the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church. It is by no means uncommon to find the option, if not expressed at least entertained, that no doctrine is to be regarded as a dogma of faith unless it has been solemnly defined by an oecuмenical Council or by the Sovereign Pontiff himself. This is by no means necessary. It is sufficient that the Church teaches it by her ordinary magisterium, exercised through the Pastors of the faithful, the Bishops whose unanimous teaching throughout the Catholic world, whether conveyed expressly through pastoral letters, catechisms issued by episcopal authority, provincial synods, or implicitly through prayers and religious practices allowed or encouraged, or through the teaching of approved theologians, is no less infallible than a solemn definition issued by a Pope or a general Council. If, then, a doctrine appears in these organs of divine Tradition as belonging directly or indirectly to the depositum fidei committed by Christ to His Church, it is to be believed by Catholics with divine-Catholic or ecclesiastical faith, even though it may never have formed the subject of a solemn definition in an oecuмenical Council or of an ex cathedra pronouncement by the Sovereign Pontiff.4

    Quote
    The answer is implicit in the principles already established. We have seen that the source of the obligation to believe is not the infallibility of the Church but her divine commission to teach. Therefore, whether her teaching is guaranteed by infallibility or not, the Church is always the divinely appointed teacher and guardian of revealed truth, and consequently the supreme authority of the Church, even when it does not intervene to make an infallible and definitive decision on matters of faith or morals, has the right, in virtue of the divine commission, to command the obedient assent of the faithful. In the absence of infallibility the assent thus demanded cannot be that of faith, whether Catholic or ecclesiastical; it will be an assent of a lower order proportioned to its ground or motive. But whatever name be given to it - for the present we may call it belief - it is obligatory; obligatory not because the teaching is infallible - it is not - but because it is the teaching of the divinely appointed Church.

    Nor is this obligation of submission to the non-infallible utterances of authority satisfied by the so-called silentium obsequiosum. The security of Catholic doctrine, which is the purpose of these decisions, would not be safeguarded if the faithful were free to withhold their assent. It is not enough that they should listen in respectful silence, refraining from open opposition. They are bound in conscience to submit to them,9 and conscientious submission to a doctrinal decree does not mean only to abstain from publicly rejecting it; it means the submission of one's own judgment to the more competent judgment of authority.

    But, satisfied that the doctrine has been authoritatively and infallibly proposed for belief by the Church, our questioner still waits to be informed whether it is a doctrine which has been formally revealed by God and is therefore to be believed under pain of heresy, or whether it is one of those matters which belong only indirectly to the
    depositum fidei and therefore to be believed by ecclesiastical faith. In the majority of cases this is not difficult to decide: dogmatic facts, canonizations, legislation - these evidently are not revealed by God and belong to the secondary object of the infallible magisterium. But the line of demarcation between dogmas and theological conclusions is not always so clear. There are some doctrines concerning which it may be doubted whether they are formally revealed by God or whether they are merely conclusions which are deduced from revealed truth, and it is part of the theologian's congenial task to endeavour to determine this. The doctrine of the Assumption is a case in point. But so far as Catholics generally are concerned it is not a matter of great importance, for if the Church - as we are supposing - teaches such doctrines in the exercise of her infallible office the faithful are bound sub gravi to believe them; in practice it is a question of determining whether he who denies them is very near to heresy or whether he has actually fallen into it. In either case he has committed a grave sin against faith.


        To sum up, Catholics are bound to believe what the Church teaches. To refuse the assent of divine-Catholic faith to a dogma is to be a heretic; to refuse the assent of ecclesiastical faith to a doctrine which the Church teaches as belonging indirectly to the deposit of faith is to be more or less near to heresy; to refuse internal religious assent to the non-infallible doctrinal decisions of the Holy See is to fail in that submission which Catholics are strictly bound to render to the teaching authority of the Church.
    Canon George Smith
    “Must I Believe It?”
    The Clergy Review

    Whatever the theological note the Church (emphasis on Church and NOT you) assigns to the doctrine of Baptism of Desire, assent is required. You are obliged to believe what the Church teaches.


    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #95 on: November 24, 2019, 11:13:08 AM »
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  • @ Ladislaus

    Quote
    Oh, I don't think there's any doubt that he would condemn someone who was trying to "prosletyze" (aka convert).

    What is this New Evangelization, promoted esepcially by John Paul II?  Well, it's where the old actual Catholic evangelization converges with Religious Liberty and the New Ecclessiology.  Prosletyzing is therefore wrong, and there's no such thing as a binary conversion from someone who was outside the Church to someone who's now inside the Church, but rather it's drawing people who are already in the Church closer to the "fullness" of truth.
    I start to see how contradictive V2 is...

    Asking to convert allowing for non a binary choice it's like aspiring to make a woman somewhat pregnant.

    While falling in love and getting married can take time, the act of procreation is binary.

    Apologies for my crude reply but I am very new to these problems and, the more your (my) community explains and teaches, the more I feel that some of the teaching of our Church governance are simply ridiculous and incoherent.

    One member rebuked me in an earlier thread: either one is in full communion or one is not in communion at all. One cannot be somewhat in communion!

    Frequenting this community makes it clear to me, every day more, that there are some serious wakos in Rome...


    John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio,

    Quote
    ... CUT ...
    For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.
    ... CUT ...
    For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."
    This is in contradiction with the three dogmas cited earlier in this thread.



    @ ByzCat3000

    I guess I just see such a big difference between the *way* Archbishop Lefebvre conveyed this kind of idea, and the way JPII conveys it.  it also shows, in terms of their actions, their attitude toward society, ecuмenism, and religious liberty.  Maybe its not technically consistent, I'm not sure.  But there seems to be a big attitudinal gap there
    ByzCat, if this community posted true evidence and accurate quotes of dogmas, then this is not an attitudinal gap, this is heresy. Simple and plain.



    @ Anyone

    Please, anyone, correct me. If a dogma affirms that something black, than a later statemt that affirms that it is a shade of gray is heresy. Am I wrong?
    Tommaso
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #96 on: November 24, 2019, 12:55:02 PM »
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  • Stop listening to laymen on an internet forum instruct you about Baptism of Desire. They are in opposition to centuries of Saints, Doctors, Popes and theologians.

    Here is an excerpt from the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to Cardinal Cushing concerning Feeney and his teachings.

    Quote
    Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a “Defender of the faith,” and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest and an ordinary member of the Church.
    Fr. Feeney was ultimately excommunicated.

    Why would you want to believe in this mans doctrines? The Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches Baptism of Desire. It’s your obligation to submit to the decisions and teaching of the Church.

    Don’t get sucked in to Feeneyism.

    Ascanio1, here is a great article about Fr. Feeney. You’ll see that he not only contradicted the doctrine of Baptism of Desire, but he even had his own opinions about Justification and Salvation, which are not congruent with the Church’s. Hopefully you will see there was something seriously wrong. His beliefs are quite cold.

    https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #97 on: November 24, 2019, 01:26:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    ByzCat, if this community posted true evidence and accurate quotes of dogmas, then this is not an attitudinal gap, this is heresy. Simple and plain.
    I thought I already addressed this, but maybe I'm wrong.  The issue is not that salvation can be had outside the Church.  That's plainly not the case.  The question is what are the boundaries of the Church.  Does the Church only consist of those who are *visibly* Catholic and in communion with the Pope (or at least I guess with the papacy as an abstract institution, since most people here would accept SVs as Catholic.) Or can there be people inside the Church, who aren't visible members?

    I made my comment to Ladislaus the way I did because we've had past conversations about it.  


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #98 on: November 24, 2019, 02:27:11 PM »
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    Explaining baptism of desire (BOD) is opening a can of worms. It is a theory never defined exactly and not a dogma, in fact it conflicts with all the dogmas on EENS and baptism, unless you do not read the dogmas as they are written, actually ignore them all (hence my satirical posting before).  Baptism of desire can mean anything to one who says they believe in BOD, here in CathInfo we call the believers in baptism of desire BODers, and their belief ranges from:
     
     1) The purest form - a catechumen who is on his way to be baptized, but gets run over by a car. They say he can be saved by his desire to be baptized, and he goes to an undecided place, no unanimous decision if they go direct to heaven like if they were baptized in water and got run over one second later, or if they go to Purgatory, and some people even say they go to limbo of the infants. (In my 25 years of experience on the subject, of all BODers today, less than 1%, if that, limit their BOD to this purest form)
     
     2) Then you have the person that desires to be a Catholic, and believes in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation (Jesus Christ is God and Man), but does not know about baptism, and gets run over by a car. The theory is that he will be saved by his implicit desire to be baptized. His desire for baptism is implicit in his desire to be a Catholic and his two beliefs. This theory is really no different than the #1. WARNING: This term "implicit" is twisted by practically all BODers to mean any desire whatsoever, and no belief in the Trinity and Incarnation (see #3 )
     
     3) Then you have baptism of desire stretched to its maximum, which is that with not even any desire, no desire whatsoever to be a Catholic or baptized, nor any belief in the Trinity or Incarnation, a person is saved by implicit faith (they will call it implicit baptism of desire which it is not). It is a Hindu who is a good person will be saved by his belief in a God that rewards. By believing in a God that rewards he implicitly believes in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation and wants to be a Catholic. That is what 99% of BODers believe when they are pressed to talk straight, which takes a lot of effort, for they are embarrassed of what they believe. BODers do not know how to explain it like that, they can't accept that a "nice" person will go to hell, so they seek teachers according to their own desires and that is how their teachers explain it.


     St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, Saint Ambrose and many other Fathers of the Church rejected altogether that an unbaptized person could be saved, what is called today baptism of desire. They rejected the above #1, 2, 3, same as we strict interpreters of EENS do, and they've never been called Feeneyites.  
     
     St. Thomas Aquinas who lived before the dogmas on EENS were declared, believed in #1, never mentioned #2, and #3 didn't even exist as a theory.
     
     St. Alphonsus Ligouri who lived after the dogmas believed in #1 and #2 and rejected #3.
     
     (Both of the theories #1 and #2 above are of no importance whatsoever, not even worth discussing, after all how many people do you know that died on the way to be baptized, and moreover, it is not a given that just because they are on the way to be baptized and get killed,  that they are saved, it is not an automatic. All of that makes it of no consequence. If somebody wants to believe that God would take the life of a catechumen minutes before he is baptized in water, so be it.  
     
    Now, the real belief of those that call others Feeneyites is #3, and that is the problem, for no Father, Doctor or Saint ever taught #3, it was a theory unheard off by any laity till the 20th century and is taught in Vatican II. Its only status is that it has not been declared a heresy yet, the same as Vatican II.
     
     The problem is not #1 and #2 and never has been to us strict interpreters of EENS, the problem is #3 for it is the real belief of those that call others Feeneyites and post here ad-nauseum.  The truth is that they believe that anyone can be saved in any religion and they reject ALL the Fathers, Doctors, and saints in their belief.


    Plain and simple they are all liars, just hiding behind #1 and #2. The interesting part is that they reject Vatican II which teaches exactly what they believe.

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #99 on: November 24, 2019, 03:15:56 PM »
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  • Colin,

    Thank you for helping me. I appreciate the alternative opinion. It is important.


    Quote
    Why would you want to believe in this mans doctrines?
    Because they are consistent with Catholic dogma.


    Fr. Feeney was ultimately excommunicated.
    From what I read and udnerstand, he was not excommunicated for his ideas but for not obeying to a summons.


    It’s your obligation to submit to the decisions and teaching of the Church.
    Teachings that come from the governance of the Church are not the same thing as teachings of the Church.

    When Church governance contravenes dogma, then my obligation is to disobey clergyment and submit to the True and infallible teachings of the Church.

    Look, I am but a sinner, in a small dinghy, in a terrible storm. My only hope is to head straight towards the lighthouse that shines the only safe beacon of truth: dogma.

    To try to save my soul in this storm, I am trying to keep it simple: if its dogma, I obey. Period.
    Tommaso
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #100 on: November 24, 2019, 05:11:09 PM »
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  • …My only hope is to head straight towards the lighthouse that shines the only safe beacon of truth: dogma.

    To try to save my soul in this storm, I am trying to keep it simple: if its dogma, I obey. Period.
    "…Except when it comes to Freedom of Speech and any other difficult dogma."


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #101 on: November 24, 2019, 05:24:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    Thank you for helping me. I appreciate the alternative opinion. It is important
     Not my opinion about this issue. Just telling you what the Church teaches.


    Quote
    Because they are consistent with Catholic dogma.
    The Catholic Church is the one to interpret her own dogmas. Not Fr. Feeney, not anyone on this forum, nor you or I.


    Quote
    From what I read and udnerstand, he was not excommunicated for his ideas but for not obeying to a summons.
    That’s what people have told you here. Feeney persisted teaching his doctrine despite correction from the Holy Office. He remained obstinate and refused to defend his doctrine to the Holy See. That’s why he was excommunicated. Once again, people are placing their opinion above that of Pope Pius XII. Genius.

     For any man to be able to prove his Catholic faith and affirm that he is truly a Catholic, he must be able to convince the Apostolic See of this. For this See is predominant and with it the faithful of the whole Church should agree. And the man who abandons the See of Peter can only be falsely confident that he is in the Church.” 

    Pope Pius IX

    But I’m sure people here will say Pope Pius IX didn’t know what he was talking about.




    Quote
    Teachings that come from the governance of the Church are not the same thing as teachings of the Church.


    Who do you think has defined the Catholic Faith over 2000 years? The governance of the Church.


    Quote
    When Church governance contravenes dogma, then my obligation is to disobey clergyment and submit to the True and infallible teachings of the Church.


    Its impossible for the Church’s governance to contradict her teachings. That’s the doctrine of indefectibility. 


    Quote
    To try to save my soul in this storm, I am trying to keep it simple: if its dogma, I obey. Period.

    What’s even more simple is to not try to falsely and perilously rely upon your own understanding. Keep it simple: if the Church teaches it, you obey. Period.

    ...t is not sufficient for learned Catholics to accept and revere the aforesaid dogmas of the Church, but that it is also necessary to subject themselves to the decisions pertaining to doctrine which are issued by the Pontifical Congregations, and also to those forms of doctrine which are held by the common and constant consent of Catholics as theological truths and conclusions, so certain that opinions opposed to these same forms of doctrine, although they cannot be called heretical, nevertheless deserve some theological censure.
    (Apostolic Letter Tuas LibenterDenz. 1684)

    You are obliged to submit yourself to the teachings and decision of the Holy See. The Holy See teaches Baptism of Desire.

    This is the danger of the R&R position. They deny the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium. They think they can resist and dissent from the teachings of Popes if it’s not ex cathedra pronouncements. They’re not going to listen Pius IX because his statement wasn’t infallible. Yet, Pius IX is saying even if it’s not a dogma, your obligation is to believe it.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #102 on: November 24, 2019, 06:08:49 PM »
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  • Your Friend Colin is obviously the old Lover of Truth, the biggest fraud on EENS. He wrote volumes here about #1&2 and was finally forced into admit his real belief, that people who do not want to be baptized, do not want to be Catholics, and even hate Christ and his Church, can be saved. He is just hiding behind BOD #1 &2, a total coward, who is afraid to say what he really is defending.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #103 on: November 24, 2019, 06:18:10 PM »
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  • Stop listening to laymen on an internet forum instruct you about Baptism of Desire.

    What he should do is to stop listening to someone who just recently converted and now acts like he knows at all and might as well be the Magisterium.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?
    « Reply #104 on: November 24, 2019, 06:23:20 PM »
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  • Stop making this about Baptism of Desire.  Take that opinion off the table.

    What we're discussing is a brand new ecclesiology.

    In Traditional Tridentine ecclesiology, either you were a Catholic or you were not, and membership in the Church was public and visible.

    With Vatican II ecclesiology, there's a sort of continuum with degrees of belonging to the Church, with actual membership being the "fullness" of it.

    Again, without any mention of Baptism, people who claim infidels and non-Catholics can be saved must say that they are in the Church (for otherwise they could not be saved), and so they too hold to a Vatican-II-like ecclesiology.

    Even the Modernist Karl Rahner admits:
    Quote
    . . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.