Author Topic: Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus (Read 8502 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2009, 11:24:36 AM »

Those under the Heading:

The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty are the only ones I should have included. Here is where you can find them.

http://www.dailycatholic.org/2009str.htm

Elizabeth · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2009, 01:16:20 PM »

Wow, the Art of Scholastic Dishonesty

Wherever did you find this?

I'll make an attempt at reading it!

CM · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:01:10 PM »

Don't bother. Griff Ruby is equally as dishonest as the Dimond brothers, or more so. Or blind.

Quick example:

Quote from: Griff Ruby

Pope Eugene IV, "Cantate Domino," Council of Florence, ex cathedra: "No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

See in here the close grammar used. This speaks of those who leave the Church (for the ancient Fathers are full of denunciations of those who leave the Church, and for the martyrdoms of those who schismatically or heretically departed from the Church they have absolutely no respect. This is why one must "persevere" in the Church, something that only applies to those who are already inside as baptized members of the Church or Faithful. It is like saying that "If an American does not pay his taxes he is to be barred from all Governmental assistance." Nowhere in such a statement can one construe anything one way or the other as to what Governmental assistance non-Americans might possibly be permitted access to, as that statement only applies to Americans. So yes, a Catholic who leaves the Church, and is then martyred while still alienated from the Church, will be damned, and no BOB would apply to such an individual.

Notice that he completely left out the first part of the quotation, which appears nowhere in the article, and does indeed completely and infallibly render his argument null and void:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ex cathedra: "It (The Holy Catholic Church) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

That includes people who have NOT YET joined the Church Mr. Ruby! God the Holy Ghost did not say "All those who LEAVE the Church,' or "All those who RESIST the Church." As your bogus and heretical interpretation suggests. No wonder you omitted that part from your article.

Not to mention he is recognizing certain antipopes as true popes, which only adds to his propensity for heretical theology.

CM · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:02:44 PM »

'Lover of Truth' and everyone else, STOP trying to put non-Catholics in heaven. It's heresy, pure and simple.

CMMM · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:15:33 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Don't bother. Griff Ruby is equally as dishonest as the Dimond brothers, or more so. Or blind.

Quick example:

Quote from: Griff Ruby
Pope Eugene IV, "Cantate Domino," Council of Florence, ex cathedra: "No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

See in here the close grammar used. This speaks of those who leave the Church (for the ancient Fathers are full of denunciations of those who leave the Church, and for the martyrdoms of those who schismatically or heretically departed from the Church they have absolutely no respect. This is why one must "persevere" in the Church, something that only applies to those who are already inside as baptized members of the Church or Faithful. It is like saying that "If an American does not pay his taxes he is to be barred from all Governmental assistance." Nowhere in such a statement can one construe anything one way or the other as to what Governmental assistance non-Americans might possibly be permitted access to, as that statement only applies to Americans. So yes, a Catholic who leaves the Church, and is then martyred while still alienated from the Church, will be damned, and no BOB would apply to such an individual.

Notice that he completely left out the first part of the quotation, which appears nowhere in the article, and does indeed completely and infallibly render his argument null and void:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ex cathedra: "It (The Holy Catholic Church) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

That includes people who have NOT YET joined the Church Mr. Ruby! God the Holy Ghost did not say "All those who LEAVE the Church,' or "All those who RESIST the Church." As your bogus and heretical interpretation suggests. No wonder you omitted that part from your article.

Not to mention he is recognizing certain antipopes as true popes, which only adds to his propensity for heretical theology.

Could you explain the significance of the semicolons in this quote CM?

CM · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:25:03 PM »

Quote from: C.M.M.M

Could you explain the significance of the semicolons in this quote CM?

Grasping at straws, again, are you C.M.M.M.? Get over it.

CMMM · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:06:17 PM »

Just asked a question. Don't feel obliged to answer.

If there is no significance, explain why. If I am grasping at straws, explain why. If the semicolon exists for a purpose, what is it's purpose in this quote, and why is Mr. Ruby a liar?

Oh, wait...

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

No. I'm done debating you.

Vladimir · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:10:29 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

'Lover of Truth' and everyone else, STOP trying to put non-Catholics in heaven. It's heresy, pure and simple.

That is actually quite to the contrary. They argue that infidels can enter the Church before death through extraordinary (and of course supernatural) means.

CM · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:14:37 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

That is actually quite to the contrary. They argue that infidels can enter the Church before death through extraordinary (and of course supernatural) means.

But they cannot. Yet the heretics refuse to accept it. Some of them even go as far as to say that explicit belief in Jesus Christ is not even necessary (invincible ignorance). Thus, objectively, they are trying to put non-Catholics in heaven.

CM · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2009, 03:43:55 PM »

Quote from: C.M.M.M

Just asked a question. Don't feel obliged to answer.

If there is no significance, explain why. If I am grasping at straws, explain why. If the semicolon exists for a purpose, what is it's purpose in this quote, and why is Mr. Ruby a liar?

When did I say he is a LIAR? There are differences between the word LIAR and the word DISHONEST. I said he is dishonest. His failure to use the full portion of Cantate Domino is dishonest, because the full text reduces his argument to nothing, whether he fully realizes it or not (also said he may just be blind).

Quote from: C.M.M.M.

Oh, wait...

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
No. I'm done debating you.

Very good! Why am I done debating you? Because your questions are completely irrelevant.

But let's play your little game for a second:

A semicolon has many uses. Often it separates to interdependent phrases. Whoopdy doo. :rolleyes:

IRRELEVANT because there is no semicolon in the Latin text of Florence. Go see for yourself (Tanner, Vol. 1, Part 17).

Frankly, you and your bad willed red herrings are quite simply pointless to keep dealing with. You've already rejected countless dogmatic decrees, without actually coming right out and saying so. You were unable to deny validity of my explanation of the rules of logic concerning the text of the Decree on Justification from Trent, though you tried and tried and fell into a critical blunder against logic in the process (logical NOR as a linguistic disjunction!).

You believe in and fight for heresy, despite the fact that logic itself is against you, and my epistemological judgment is that you are a formal heretic, on the road to hell. I hope you don't die like that.

Good day.

CMMM · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2009, 04:41:49 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

When did I say he is a LIAR? There are differences between the word LIAR and the word DISHONEST.

:roll-laugh2:

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

IRRELEVANT because there is no semicolon in the Latin text of Florence. Go see for yourself (Tanner, Vol. 1, Part 17).

That's fantastic. Go prove this is another faulty translation. Before we know it, the only trustworthy translation and interpretation will be from yourself.

'Pope' Catholic Martyr.

While your at it (proving this translation is wrong), you may feel it worthwhile to investigate the word 'aut' a little further.

I won't bring up the argument on NOR, though the investigation of 'aut' should tie in nicely with it.

I suggest...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/disjunction/#MytVelAut

Vladimir · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2009, 05:01:53 PM »

He doesn't say that he is the pope. Stop being sarcastic and uncharitable.

Dawn · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2009, 07:55:59 PM »

Dawn · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2009, 08:06:52 PM »

There is Catate Domino. Simple. Can not confuse the meaning. My priest was here this afternoon and I asked him about these things. You see he was telling me of an instance in his own family where his relative had the children "baptised" in the Novus Ordo fashion. Fr. K. told them in no uncertain terms that there children had not been baptised as the Novus Ordo form is invalid. He told them that to die and find out that he was correct would be too late. He said to them that God is the final judge of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, however they did not get ther children baptised as the Church teaches and from where he stands he told them it is not good.
Further, he said that "invincible ignorance" is so rare as to be non-exsistent these days. There is no excuse not to know our religion and the Gospel has been spread to the four corners of the earth. Why even persons in third world nations and jungles surf the web and have television and cell-phones.
He said that the fact of the matter is that most people today have heard and do not care. And, the worse he says are Catholics who do not defend the Church and teach her truths.
He conditionally baptizes everyone who comes to him after he has taught them, questioned them and heard them abjure the errors and falsehoods and heresies they held. He baptizes them because he says if they were not baptized or not baptized correctly the will not go to Heaven.
He also said that I should stay away from any boards that do not hold the True Faith and that we are not to enter into discussions with those of different faiths. Since he is sedevacantist that would mean this board as well.
Fr. K always says it is Catholic or Not there are no shades of gray, and if I have any questions I need only go to the writings of Pope Pius IX or Pope Pius X for clarification.