Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

That is an evolution of the heresy yes, but baptism of desire, being a proposition that is directly opposed to the Solemn Magisterial decrees of Holy Mother Church is the original heresy.

So, you are claiming that the Council of Trent was a heretical council?

No.  Why would you say that?

Trent, clearly, speaks of BoD ("vowtum").

A heretic non priest thought he did, and so did I at the time.  However I have since learned better (and found out that he did not do it according to the proposed method).  I no longer have that scapular, but I wear the replacement continuously.

I do not know if it can even be properly called a sacramental in my case, since it is not blessed, nor was I enrolled in it by a Catholic clergymen.

It is a reminder to me of my duties to the Blessed Virgin Mary and it reminds me to invoke the Blessed Virgin in times of temptation.

Hello Catholic Martyr,

 :wave:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to believe that if a clergymen is a "heretic" he does not validly do anything right.

If a clergymen is a heretic, or schismatic he loses office.  He retains his God given supernatural ability to effect sacraments, but he loses the right to do so, and therefore every such act is a mortal sin.

If a person is aware that this is the case, yet still seeks sacraments or sacramentals from him, then the person asking is also sinning mortally.

Maybe you admit that it is valid but does not count somehow.

Valid, and it counts for damnation, just like receiving the Eucharist in the state of mortal sin.  There have been martyrs who died rather than receive sacraments at the hands of heretical clergy.  St. Hermenegild...

I am certain that people who feel it is alright to receive sacraments at the hands of clergy who are 'mostly catholic', or who do not even bother to ask their priest about his faith (perhaps fearing the answers and their consequences, but ignorance is not bliss when it is culpable), are committing a sin that cries to heaven, and saints like Hermenegild are crying out: "How long O Lord, before Thou wilt avenge us."

So can you explain to me why you do not think you are properly enrolled in the scapular?

I understand (according to some) that the orders in the Novus Ordo are invalid.  I don't know much about this topic, so I simply view Novus Ordo 'clergy', like the man who enrolled (?) me, and their sacraments as doubtful.

Also, can you ease my mind and let me know that you would admit you were wrong if you believe you were proven to be wrong on anything?

Yes.  Here you go.

Lastly, please address this for me, the Church has cannonized saints that they believed were never baptized, forget whether or not cannonizations are infallible or not, does the Church cannonizing people they believe were not baptized with water show that they believe in BOB/D or not?

This is a common argument.  There are a very small number of such cases.  The first is that the Early Church saints and martyrs were not canonized, but rather the faithful were granted permission to venerate them on account of the records of their lives.  And it's important to note that in the Early Church, there had not yet been a dogmatic declaration which eliminiated the possibilities of BoD or BoB.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is quite possible for stories to be handed down that do not match the actual events.

Still another is that there are some supposed catechumen martyrs, but the term catechumen does not automatically mean unbaptized, as can be seen by reading the first Ecuмenical Council:

2. Since, either through necessity or through the importunate demands of certain individuals, there have been many breaches of the church's canon, with the result that men who have recently come from a pagan life to the faith after a short catechumenate have been admitted at once to the spiritual washing, and at the same time as their baptism have been promoted to the episcopate or the presbyterate, it is agreed that it would be well for nothing of the kind to occur in the future. For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism, for the apostle's words are clear: "Not a recent convert, or he may be puffed up and fall into the condemnation and the snare of the devil". But if with the passage of time some sin of sensuality is discovered with regard to the person and he is convicted by two or three witnesses, such a one will be suspended from the clergy. If anyone contravenes these regulations, he will be liable to forfeit his clerical status for acting in defiance of this great synod.

Likewise the deeds of the holy martyrs . . . [which] with remarkable caution are not read in the holy Roman Church . . . because the names of those who wrote (them) are entirely unknown . . . lest an occasion of light mockery arise. We, however, with the aforementioned Church venerate with every devotion both all the martyrs and the glorious combats of those who are known to God rather than to men.

And finally, infallible dogma and common sense both tell us that canonizations are not, in fact, an exercise of papal infallibility.