Author Topic: Every. Single. Time. (Read 1358 times)

WorldsAway · « **on:** June 15, 2025, 10:37:18 AM »

Why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME trad clergy even remotely touch on EENS (which is rare enough) they just seem compelled to dilute the dogma by bringing up "invincible ignorance". Am I crazy or has anyone else experienced this happening EVERY SINGLE TIME. Is this taught in seminary, that you MUST make mention of the poor ignorant who will certainly be saved by their ignorance whenever you teach about "No Salvation Outside the Church"? Who does this help? You're speaking to Catholics, who are not ignorant, who have supernatural Faith, who are members of the Church, who know what is necessary for salvation. Is it to make us feel better about those we know who have not the Faith? What Catholic would ever more fervently seek the conversion of non-Catholics after hearing about salvation through invincible ignorance? The only result of this being taught is the damnation of more souls

Quote

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the 'eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.

-Council of Florence

How much clearer can you get?? Those at the Council of Florence made ZERO distinction between your "regular" Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics who will be damned to the eternal fire and these supposed "invincibly ignorant" Jews, pagans, heretics, and schismatics who will be saved. They simply said "pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics". And what happens to them if they do not BEFORE DEATH become joined to the Holy Roman Catholic Church? They go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels. What is wrong with these people?!

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2025, 10:44:31 AM »

Quote from: WorldsAway on June 15, 2025, 10:37:18 AM

Why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME trad clergy even remotely touch on EENS (which is rare enough) they just seem compelled to dilute the dogma by bringing up "invincible ignorance". Am I crazy or has anyone else experienced this happening EVERY SINGLE TIME. Is this taught in seminary, that you MUST make mention of the poor ignorant who will certainly be saved by their ignorance whenever you teach about "No Salvation Outside the Church"? Who does this help? You're speaking to Catholics, who are not ignorant, who have supernatural Faith, who are members of the Church, who know what is necessary for salvation. Is it to make us feel better about those we know who have not the Faith? What Catholic would ever more fervently seek the conversion of non-Catholics after hearing about salvation through invincible ignorance? The only result of this being taught is the damnation of more souls

How much clearer can you get?? Those at the Council of Florence made ZERO distinction between your "regular" Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics who will be damned to the eternal fire and these supposed "invincibly ignorant" Jews, pagans, heretics, and schismatics who will be saved. They simply said "pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics". And what happens to them if they do not BEFORE DEATH become joined to the Holy Roman Catholic Church? They go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels. What is wrong with these people?!

Brainwashing. They can't accept that Arch Bishop Lefebvre was wrong on this matter and Fr Feeney was right. It comes down to human respect. And not reading and accepting the Church states AS IS. This is why they also can't see that Trent does not teach BoD, the decree literally refers to JUSTIFICATION not baptism.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2025, 12:30:42 PM »

At the end of the day, it is human cowardice. They do not want to have to tell Jimmy, the Hindu next door, that if he does not become a Catholic, then he will be damned. It is much easier to water things down. These same priests take the same position with the New Mass. Oh, we cannot tell the people that the New Mass is a sin, we do not want to hurt their FEEWINGS!!!!

WorldsAway · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2025, 01:32:07 PM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on June 15, 2025, 10:44:31 AM

Brainwashing. They can't accept that Arch Bishop Lefebvre was wrong on this matter and Fr Feeney was right. It comes down to human respect. And not reading and accepting the Church states AS IS. This is why they also can't see that Trent does not teach BoD, the decree literally refers to JUSTIFICATION not baptism.

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 15, 2025, 12:30:42 PM

At the end of the day, it is human cowardice. They do not want to have to tell Jimmy, the Hindu next door, that if he does not become a Catholic, then he will be damned. It is much easier to water things down. These same priests take the same position with the New Mass. Oh, we cannot tell the people that the New Mass is a sin, we do not want to hurt their FEEWINGS!!!!

Agreed. What I'm trying to get at, however, is the phenomenon of clergy incessantly adding the dilution of "invincible ignorance" after having affirmed EENS..every. single. time. I don't believe I have ever heard a priest (aside from a Fr. Bitzer or Wathen) teach EENS, even as a passing remark, without just having to add that disclaimer.
It's almost as if they believe the dogma, as it has been pronounced by the Church throughout Her history, that there is no salvation outside the Church, is terribly difficult to comprehend..and that when we simple lay folk hear that "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" we might fall into the grave error of believing that it means what it says..so they must add on to this most important dogma of the Church something that was never taught with it

Typing that last part out, I think that might just be it. "No Salvation Outside the Church" is such a clear and concise statement that anyone who is not familiar with salvation through "invincible ignorance" will, when hearing EENS, understand that the dogma means exactly what it says. So that may be why they always add the dilution after teaching EENS, lest someone who is listening gets the strange notion that Outside the Church..there is no salvation.

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2025, 02:13:36 PM »

Quote from: WorldsAway on June 15, 2025, 01:32:07 PM

It's almost as if they believe the dogma, as it has been pronounced by the Church throughout Her history, that there is no salvation outside the Church, is terribly difficult to comprehend..and that when we simple lay folk hear that "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" we might fall into the grave error of believing that it means what it says..so they must add on to this most important dogma of the Church something that was never taught with it

15. Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecciesiam, etc., and ends by denying it - while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it.

What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the Church's Infallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying. - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2025, 02:16:57 PM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 15, 2025, 12:30:42 PM

Jimmy, the Hindu next door, that if he does not become a Catholic, then he will be damned.

Jimmy the Hindu? Love it

VivaJesus · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2025, 02:38:54 PM »

One time, a SSPX priest was teaching us catechism, and he mentioned EENS. I specifically asked him about salvation of the invincibly ignorant. He told me in front of about 15 people that there was no such a thing.

Another SSPX priest was preachng a sermon about EENS the other day and he never mentioned the "qualification" (really a denial of the dogma). Those are priests from the district of Mexico, who are said to be fairly conservative. God bless them. There's some hope.

It is frequently said that so much discussion about EENS is vain since we are never going to encounter an invincibly ignorant person. Or that no Catholic on the liberal side of this controversy will actually suggest to a pagan not to get baptized, so in practice those liberals don't deny the dogma. That's not the point of getting EENS right. Here's what Fr. Feeney said about believing EENS for our own sake. From his book Bread of Life:

Angelus · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2025, 03:23:43 PM »

Quote from: WorldsAway on June 15, 2025, 10:37:18 AM

Why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME trad clergy even remotely touch on EENS (which is rare enough) they just seem compelled to dilute the dogma by bringing up "invincible ignorance". Am I crazy or has anyone else experienced this happening EVERY SINGLE TIME. Is this taught in seminary, that you MUST make mention of the poor ignorant who will certainly be saved by their ignorance whenever you teach about "No Salvation Outside the Church"? Who does this help? You're speaking to Catholics, who are not ignorant, who have supernatural Faith, who are members of the Church, who know what is necessary for salvation. Is it to make us feel better about those we know who have not the Faith? What Catholic would ever more fervently seek the conversion of non-Catholics after hearing about salvation through invincible ignorance? The only result of this being taught is the damnation of more souls

How much clearer can you get?? Those at the Council of Florence made ZERO distinction between your "regular" Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics who will be damned to the eternal fire and these supposed "invincibly ignorant" Jews, pagans, heretics, and schismatics who will be saved. They simply said "pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics". And what happens to them if they do not BEFORE DEATH become joined to the Holy Roman Catholic Church? They go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels. What is wrong with these people?!

Are you unaware of Pius IX's discussion of "invincible ignorance?"

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm

"7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

If Pius IX thought it important enough to mention, why wouldn't it be important for the trad clergy to make that distinction as well?

The distinction Pius IX is making is between those who never held the Catholic Faith (because they were ignorant of it) and those who did, at one time, hold the Catholic Faith but fell away from the Faith and "are living in error."

Pope Eugene's comment also references those who do not "remain" in the Catholic Church, meaning that they were once Catholic and fell away from the Faith. See the word "remain" in your quote from Florence:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the 'eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

-Council of Florence

Now, the inevitable response will be "but that means everyone eventually goes to Heaven." Absolutely false. The "invincibly ignorant" are defined by Pius IX as those,

"Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

These "invincibly ignorant" people are not common. How many non-Catholics do you think there are who "observe the natural law?"

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2025, 04:09:35 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on June 16, 2025, 03:23:43 PM

Are you unaware of Pius IX's discussion of "invincible ignorance?"

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm

"7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

There's "invincible ignorance," then there's what Pope Pius XII said: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion." Two completely different things.

Angelus · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2025, 04:30:32 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on June 16, 2025, 04:09:35 PM

There's "invincible ignorance," then there's what Pope Pius XII said: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion." Two completely different things.

Using Pius IX's formulation in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7:

There is no "eternal salvation" for a person "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity."

BUT

There is no "eternal punishment" for a person "who is not guilty of deliberate sin."

THEREFORE

A non-Catholic person who is "sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God" will be considered an "honest" but "ignorant" person by God and, for this reason will "attain eternal life," even though that person is a non-Catholic.

Is that not what Pius IX is saying?

WorldsAway · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2025, 05:21:10 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on June 16, 2025, 03:23:43 PM

Are you unaware of Pius IX's discussion of "invincible ignorance?"

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm

"7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

If Pius IX thought it important enough to mention, why wouldn't it be important for the trad clergy to make that distinction as well?

The distinction Pius IX is making is between those who never held the Catholic Faith (because they were ignorant of it) and those who did, at one time, hold the Catholic Faith but fell away from the Faith and "are living in error."

Pius IX did not make the distinction in the same way clergy do today. In fact, I don't think the "distinction" Pius IX made is what you are claiming it is at all.

Quote

very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion

Notice that, after saying that the belief that those "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity" can "arrive at eternal salvation" is "certainly opposed to Catholic teaching", Pius IX does NOT say "however" or "but" or any other common beginning of EENS soft denial. He teaches the dogma as it is, and leaves it at that, and then moves on to the invincibly ignorant.

And what does he say about the invincibly ignorant? Not what you claim, and not what trad clergy teach. He simply says "they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". Where in this quote do we read that the invincibly ignorant can be saved without formally entering the Church? Without explicit faith and baptism?
Those invincibly ignorant who live honest lives and observe the natural law will be furnished with the means of salvation. That must happen, in order for them to be saved, because the invincibly ignorant are included in those who "[live] in error and [are] alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity"! And what did Pius IX teach about those "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity."? They cannot arrive at eternal salvation

Was it Pius IX that lamented liberals who twisted and misinterpreted his words?

Quote

Pope Eugene's comment also references those who do not "remain" in the Catholic Church, meaning that they were once Catholic and fell away from the Faith. See the word "remain" in your quote from Florence:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the 'eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

-Council of Florence

Pope Eugene would not say "pagans", "Jews and heretics and schismatics" if he was speaking of Catholics, because none of those people are Catholic. Again, note that he made no distinction between pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics who are invincibly ignorant and those who are not. They will all go into the eternal fire unless, before death, they are joined with the Church. If they are joined with the Church before death, they are no longer pagans, Jews, etc.

The usage of the words "remaining" and "remain" appear AFTER Pope Eugene says that those listed above must be joined with the Church in order to be saved. You must be joined with the Church AND remain in Her unity in order to be saved

Angelus · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2025, 08:33:05 PM »

Quote from: WorldsAway on June 16, 2025, 05:21:10 PM

Pius IX did not make the distinction in the same way clergy do today. In fact, I don't think the "distinction" Pius IX made is what you are claiming it is at all.

Notice that, after saying that the belief that those "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity" can "arrive at eternal salvation" is "certainly opposed to Catholic teaching", Pius IX does NOT say "however" or "but" or any other common beginning of EENS soft denial. He teaches the dogma as it is, and leaves it at that, and then moves on to the invincibly ignorant.

And what does he say about the invincibly ignorant? Not what you claim, and not what trad clergy teach. He simply says "they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". Where in this quote do we read that the invincibly ignorant can be saved without formally entering the Church? Without explicit faith and baptism?
Those invincibly ignorant who live honest lives and observe the natural law will be furnished with the means of salvation. That must happen, in order for them to be saved, because the invincibly ignorant are included in those who "[live] in error and [are] alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity"! And what did Pius IX teach about those "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity."? They cannot arrive at eternal salvation

Was it Pius IX that lamented liberals who twisted and misinterpreted his words?

Pope Eugene would not say "pagans", "Jews and heretics and schismatics" if he was speaking of Catholics, because none of those people are Catholic. Again, note that he made no distinction between pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics who are invincibly ignorant and those who are not. They will all go into the eternal fire unless, before death, they are joined with the Church. If they are joined with the Church before death, they are no longer pagans, Jews, etc.

The usage of the words "remaining" and "remain" appear AFTER Pope Eugene says that those listed above must be joined with the Church in order to be saved. You must be joined with the Church AND remain in Her unity in order to be saved

Bottom line: according to Pius IX, "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" AND "observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God," even though they are outside of the Catholic Church, will not be eternally punished.

Do you agree or disagree? If you agree, what do you think Pius IX means? If they will not be eternally punished, what will happen to them when they die?

WorldsAway · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2025, 09:05:51 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on June 16, 2025, 08:33:05 PM

Bottom line: according to Pius IX, "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" AND "observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God," even though they are outside of the Catholic Church, will not be eternally punished.

Do you agree or disagree? If you agree, what do you think Pius IX means? If they will not be eternally punished, what will happen to them when they die?

I disagree with your interpretation of what Pius IX was saying. I believe those who fall under the conditions laid out by Pius IX will be provided with the necessary means of salvation, and if they accept those means they will be saved. When you say they are "outside of the Catholic Church" yet "will not be eternally punished" you are saying something Pius IX never taught, and you should not imply that he ever taught that because that is contrary to Church teaching. Pius IX said the invincibly ignorant are "able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.". As to the hypothetical invincibly ignorant person who observes the natural law and is ready to obey God, yet never received the opportunity to enter the Church by Baptism, there is no evidence for such a person ever having existed

Do you agree or disagree that ALL non-Catholics are "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity"?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2025, 09:36:43 PM »

Pius IX himself angrily denounced the misinterpretation of his teaching, the same distortion being applied by the BoDers today. It's basic theology since St. Thomas endorsed the notion of Limbo that one isn't punished except for actual sin. Ignorance however can only be exculpatory, not salvific ... unless you're a Pelagian heretic ... which, alas, most of you are. Try harder.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2025, 09:42:19 PM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 15, 2025, 12:30:42 PM

At the end of the day, it is human cowardice. They do not want to have to tell Jimmy, the Hindu next door, that if he does not become a Catholic, then he will be damned. It is much easier to water things down. These same priests take the same position with the New Mass. Oh, we cannot tell the people that the New Mass is a sin, we do not want to hurt their FEEWINGS!!!!

THIS ^^^

Has any soul ever been lost because someone told them there's no salvation outside the Catholic Church? No. In fact, many have been saved.

But many are lost due to a complacency that comes from being told the opposite.

Even among Trad clergy many have weak minds and weak faith, despite having some sensibilities in favor of smells and bells.

They are also intellectually dishonest ... since they hold th exact same ecclesiology that attack V2 over as its core heresy.

Author Topic: Every. Single. Time. (Read 1358 times)

WorldsAway

Every. Single. Time.

AnthonyPadua

Re: Every. Single. Time.

OABrownson1876

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WorldsAway

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Stubborn

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gladius_veritatis

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VivaJesus

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Angelus

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Stubborn

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Angelus

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WorldsAway

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Angelus

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WorldsAway

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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