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Author Topic: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch  (Read 1805 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 12:40:38 PM »
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  • There's a rather disedifying story about Archbishop Lefebvre.  +Lefebvre, having visited a missionary area, as he was leaving, was acosted by a native who asked if +Lefebvre could baptize him, since he was worried about not being saved if he died before +Lefebvre's next visit (which was some time off).  See, if that were me, I'd be like "this man has more faith than most Traditional Catholics" and then baptize him right there.  But +Lefebvre told him not to worry about it because if he died before then that Baptism of Desire would take care of it.  So ... by telling him this, it turned a zealous desire to be baptized that if there WERE a BoD, that's precisely the kind of zeal and ardent desire (and intention) needed for it to take effect.  But now this poor soul, having "relax" ... would have stopped desiring it with the same zeal as before, and quite possibly jeopardized his ability to be saved by BoD (if it existed).
    And wouldn't this create a paradox of sorts? The native desired baptism but was then told about BOD to allay his concerns..well, is he now desiring baptism or is he desiring baptism of desire? As soon as an unbaptized person knows about BOD they might just start desiring the desire necessary to receive baptism of desire :smirk:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 12:55:35 PM »
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  • And wouldn't this create a paradox of sorts? The native desired baptism but was then told about BOD to allay his concerns..well, is he now desiring baptism or is he desiring baptism of desire? As soon as an unbaptized person knows about BOD they might just start desiring the desire necessary to receive baptism of desire :smirk:

    Certainly ... and Father Feeney actually called this problem out.  Even if +Lefebvre had decided he's not ready, it could have been phrased more like, "God taught us, seek and we shall find, ask and we shall receive ... so if you continue ardently desiring the Sacrament, God will make sure that you receive it before you die."  That would have perhaps slightly alleviated his concerns without at the same time diminishing his desire to receive the Sacrament, and would probably increase it.  As if comforting someone's anxiety justifies jeopardizing their soul, right?  As mentioned, there's ZERO need for Baptism of Desire.  It was only invented to attack and undermine EENS, either directly or indirectly.  BoD was not revealed by God, or there would have been unanimous consensus about it among the Church Fathers, but the vast majority rejected it openly, and even St. Augustine admitted that he was just speculating ... rather than authoritatively teaching or reporting something that had been handed down.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 01:09:24 PM »
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  • Yes.  That’s why the attack on EENS started centuries ago.  EENS has been under attack for millennia, which is why the Church has had to define it THREE different times.  (And needs to redefine it a 4th time).  
    In one of his talks, Fr. Wathen said that every pope at their coronation should proclaim the doctrine EENS. That makes very good sense!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse