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Author Topic: Every. Single. Time.  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Every. Single. Time.
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2025, 10:00:56 PM »
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  • I disagree with your interpretation of what Pius IX was saying. I believe those who fall under the conditions laid out by Pius IX will be provided with the necessary means of salvation, and if they accept those means they will be saved. When you say they are "outside of the Catholic Church" yet "will not be eternally punished" you are saying something Pius IX never taught, and you should not imply that he ever taught that because that is contrary to Church teaching. Pius IX said the invincibly ignorant are "able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.". As to the hypothetical invincibly ignorant person who observes the natural law and is ready to obey God, yet never received the opportunity to enter the Church by Baptism, there is no evidence for such a person ever having existed


    Do you agree or disagree that ALL non-Catholics are "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity"?

    Pius IX is making a distinction between "eternal salvation" and "eternal punishments." But there is are states in-between these two that must be considered. Those in-between states recognized by the Church are Purgatory, the limbo of children and the limbo of the Fathers.

    Only Catholics have the potential to "arrive at eternal salvation." There is a good reason for this. It is because only Catholics have access to the Sacraments and sacramentals of the Church, which allow them to remain in a state of grace and make recompense in this earthly life for the debt that they owe for their sins. Having said that, potentiality and actuality are two different things. And most Catholics will not "arrive at eternal salvation." Instead, most Catholics will go either to Hell, or to Purgatory, where they be purified by (not saved from) the eternal fires of Hell before their arrival in Heaven.

    Non-Catholics have no potential to "arrive at eternal salvation" upon their death. There is a good reason for this. It is because non-Catholics DO NOT have access to the Sacraments and sacramentals of the Church to remain in a state of grace and make recompense in this earthly life for the debt that they owe for their sins. Having said that, if the non-Catholic is one of "those who is struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" AND "observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God," then that particular non-Catholic will not "suffer eternal punishments." Additionally, according to Pius IX, these rare, invincibly-ignorant and natural-law-observing non-Catholics will eventually "attain eternal life."

    These rare, invincibly-ignorant and natural-law-observing non-Catholics are in a kind of in-between state. But unlike Catholics who don't actualize their potential for "eternal salvation" (because they fail, through their own fault, to properly utilize the Church's treasury of graces available to them), these rare "honest" non-Catholics will not go to Purgatory. Instead, they will go to limbo. Why? Because, by definition, they are ignorant and inculpable, like the small children who die without baptism. So, their souls will be treated the same way as the souls of those children. If limbo exists for unbaptized children, then it exists for "honest" non-Catholics of all ages. Why is this so hard to understand?

    FWIW, I do agree that ALL non-Catholics are "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity." But again, not all non-Catholics are culpable for that error and alienation. Specifically, those who suffer from "invincible ignorance" AND who "sincerely observe the natural law" are "not guilty of deliberate sin." Therefore, that rare group of non-Catholics don't go to the Hell of eternal punishment. They go to limbo (specifically the "limbo of the fathers.")

    You can read Aquinas's discussion of Limbo here: https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A6


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Every. Single. Time.
    « Reply #16 on: June 16, 2025, 10:44:57 PM »
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  • Using Pius IX's formulation in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7:

    There is no "eternal salvation" for a person "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity."

    BUT

    There is no "eternal punishment" for a person "who is not guilty of deliberate sin."

    THEREFORE

    A non-Catholic person who is "sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God" will be considered an "honest" but "ignorant" person by God and, for this reason will "attain eternal life," even though that person is a non-Catholic.

    Is that not what Pius IX is saying?
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved 14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher 15 And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things [Romans 10:13-15]

     16 But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report 17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ 18 But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world 19 But I say: Hath not Israel known? First, Moses saith: I will provoke you to jealousy by that which is not a nation; by a foolish nation I will anger you 20 But Isaias is bold, and saith: I was found by them that did not seek me: I appeared openly to them that asked not after me [Romans 10:16-20]


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Every. Single. Time.
    « Reply #17 on: June 16, 2025, 10:59:29 PM »
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  • 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved 14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher 15 And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things [Romans 10:13-15]

     16 But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report 17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ 18 But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world 19 But I say: Hath not Israel known? First, Moses saith: I will provoke you to jealousy by that which is not a nation; by a foolish nation I will anger you 20 But Isaias is bold, and saith: I was found by them that did not seek me: I appeared openly to them that asked not after me [Romans 10:16-20]

    Romans chapter 10 is mainly about the Jews, who claimed to be the true "Israel," but refused to accept Jesus as their Christ. This old "Israel" was not invincibly ignorant. Their blindness was culpable. They knew better. Just like Catholics of today should know better than to do many of the things they do.

    The Jews (the old Israel) and the Catholics (the new Israel) are held to a higher standard by God. Why? Because they have been given the grace of the true Faith. Those who squander such a treasure will be punished more severely than those who are invincibly ignorant.

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Every. Single. Time.
    « Reply #18 on: June 17, 2025, 05:09:47 AM »
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  • Pius IX is making a distinction between "eternal salvation" and "eternal punishments." But there is are states in-between these two that must be considered. Those in-between states recognized by the Church are Purgatory, the limbo of children and the limbo of the Fathers.

    Only Catholics have the potential to "arrive at eternal salvation." There is a good reason for this. It is because only Catholics have access to the Sacraments and sacramentals of the Church, which allow them to remain in a state of grace and make recompense in this earthly life for the debt that they owe for their sins. Having said that, potentiality and actuality are two different things. And most Catholics will not "arrive at eternal salvation." Instead, most Catholics will go either to Hell, or to Purgatory, where they be purified by (not saved from) the eternal fires of Hell before their arrival in Heaven.

    Non-Catholics have no potential to "arrive at eternal salvation" upon their death. There is a good reason for this. It is because non-Catholics DO NOT have access to the Sacraments and sacramentals of the Church to remain in a state of grace and make recompense in this earthly life for the debt that they owe for their sins. Having said that, if the non-Catholic is one of "those who is struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" AND "observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God," then that particular non-Catholic will not "suffer eternal punishments." Additionally, according to Pius IX, these rare, invincibly-ignorant and natural-law-observing non-Catholics will eventually "attain eternal life."

    These rare, invincibly-ignorant and natural-law-observing non-Catholics are in a kind of in-between state. But unlike Catholics who don't actualize their potential for "eternal salvation" (because they fail, through their own fault, to properly utilize the Church's treasury of graces available to them), these rare "honest" non-Catholics will not go to Purgatory. Instead, they will go to limbo. Why? Because, by definition, they are ignorant and inculpable, like the small children who die without baptism. So, their souls will be treated the same way as the souls of those children. If limbo exists for unbaptized children, then it exists for "honest" non-Catholics of all ages. Why is this so hard to understand?

    FWIW, I do agree that ALL non-Catholics are "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity." But again, not all non-Catholics are culpable for that error and alienation. Specifically, those who suffer from "invincible ignorance" AND who "sincerely observe the natural law" are "not guilty of deliberate sin." Therefore, that rare group of non-Catholics don't go to the Hell of eternal punishment. They go to limbo (specifically the "limbo of the fathers.")

    You can read Aquinas's discussion of Limbo here: https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A6
    These are two contradictory statements. Will these souls "eventually attain eternal life" or will they go to limbo? Pius IX taught that they can attain eternal life "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". I believe this to mean they will be afforded the necessary means of salvation (entering the Church by Baptism), before death. If they accept these means they will be saved, if they do not they will be damned. 

    Quote
    But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains

    -Council of Florence


    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Every. Single. Time.
    « Reply #19 on: June 17, 2025, 05:25:08 AM »
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  • Using Pius IX's formulation in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7:

    There is no "eternal salvation" for a person "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity."

    BUT

    There is no "eternal punishment" for a person "who is not guilty of deliberate sin."

    THEREFORE

    A non-Catholic person who is "sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God" will be considered an "honest" but "ignorant" person by God and, for this reason will "attain eternal life," even though that person is a non-Catholic.

    Is that not what Pius IX is saying?
    I would not think for one second that that's what PPIX is saying. After all, a non-Catholic is, as PPIX says, is: "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity." In both the previous sentences, and the very next sentence, he proclaims the EENS dogma.

    When he says: "anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishment" he is talking about members of the Church.   
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Every. Single. Time.
    « Reply #20 on: June 20, 2025, 07:16:58 AM »
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  • Here is yet another quote from the great St. Augustine in support of Extra Ecclesiam taken from his work Admonition and Grace (Fathers of Church, Cath. Univ., vol. 4):

    "Moreover, I shall not delay over the baptism of infants (which as our adversaries must admit, certainly belong to the kingdom of God, even if the above mentioned things do not), nor consider why it is given to one and not to another, when to give it or not to give it is equally in the power of God, and without that sacrament no one enters the kingdom of God." (p. 267)
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