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Author Topic: Every. Single. Time.  (Read 9322 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

Every. Single. Time.
« on: June 15, 2025, 10:37:18 AM »
Why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME trad clergy even remotely touch on EENS (which is rare enough) they just seem compelled to dilute the dogma by bringing up "invincible ignorance". Am I crazy or has anyone else experienced this happening EVERY SINGLE TIME. Is this taught in seminary, that you MUST make mention of the poor ignorant who will certainly be saved by their ignorance whenever you teach about "No Salvation Outside the Church"? Who does this help? You're speaking to Catholics, who are not ignorant, who have supernatural Faith, who are members of the Church, who know what is necessary for salvation. Is it to make us feel better about those we know who have not the Faith? What Catholic would ever more fervently seek the conversion of non-Catholics after hearing about salvation through invincible ignorance? The only result of this being taught is the damnation of more souls


Quote
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the 'eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.

-Council of Florence
How much clearer can you get?? Those at the Council of Florence made ZERO distinction between your "regular" Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics who will be damned to the eternal fire and these supposed "invincibly ignorant" Jews, pagans, heretics, and schismatics who will be saved. They simply said "pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics". And what happens to them if they do not BEFORE DEATH become joined to the Holy Roman Catholic Church? They go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels. What is wrong with these people?!
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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Every. Single. Time.
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2025, 10:44:31 AM »
Quote from: WorldsAway on June 15, 2025, 10:37:18 AM
Why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME trad clergy even remotely touch on EENS (which is rare enough) they just seem compelled to dilute the dogma by bringing up "invincible ignorance". Am I crazy or has anyone else experienced this happening EVERY SINGLE TIME. Is this taught in seminary, that you MUST make mention of the poor ignorant who will certainly be saved by their ignorance whenever you teach about "No Salvation Outside the Church"? Who does this help? You're speaking to Catholics, who are not ignorant, who have supernatural Faith, who are members of the Church, who know what is necessary for salvation. Is it to make us feel better about those we know who have not the Faith? What Catholic would ever more fervently seek the conversion of non-Catholics after hearing about salvation through invincible ignorance? The only result of this being taught is the damnation of more souls

How much clearer can you get?? Those at the Council of Florence made ZERO distinction between your "regular" Jews, pagans, heretics, schismatics who will be damned to the eternal fire and these supposed "invincibly ignorant" Jews, pagans, heretics, and schismatics who will be saved. They simply said "pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics". And what happens to them if they do not BEFORE DEATH become joined to the Holy Roman Catholic Church? They go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels. What is wrong with these people?!
Brainwashing. They can't accept that Arch Bishop Lefebvre was wrong on this matter and Fr Feeney was right. It comes down to human respect. And not reading and accepting the Church states AS IS. This is why they also can't see that Trent does not teach BoD, the decree literally refers to JUSTIFICATION not baptism.
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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Every. Single. Time.
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2025, 12:30:42 PM »
At the end of the day, it is human cowardice.  They do not want to have to tell Jimmy, the Hindu next door, that if he does not become a Catholic, then he will be damned. It is much easier to water things down.  These same priests take the same position with the New Mass. Oh, we cannot tell the people that the New Mass is a sin, we do not want to hurt their FEEWINGS!!!!
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Offline WorldsAway

Re: Every. Single. Time.
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2025, 01:32:07 PM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on June 15, 2025, 10:44:31 AM
Brainwashing. They can't accept that Arch Bishop Lefebvre was wrong on this matter and Fr Feeney was right. It comes down to human respect. And not reading and accepting the Church states AS IS. This is why they also can't see that Trent does not teach BoD, the decree literally refers to JUSTIFICATION not baptism.
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 15, 2025, 12:30:42 PM
At the end of the day, it is human cowardice.  They do not want to have to tell Jimmy, the Hindu next door, that if he does not become a Catholic, then he will be damned. It is much easier to water things down.  These same priests take the same position with the New Mass. Oh, we cannot tell the people that the New Mass is a sin, we do not want to hurt their FEEWINGS!!!!
Agreed. What I'm trying to get at, however, is the phenomenon of clergy incessantly adding the dilution of "invincible ignorance" after having affirmed EENS..every. single. time. I don't believe I have ever heard a priest (aside from a Fr. Bitzer or Wathen) teach EENS, even as a passing remark, without just having to add that disclaimer.
It's almost as if they believe the dogma, as it has been pronounced by the Church throughout Her history, that there is no salvation outside the Church, is terribly difficult to comprehend..and that when we simple lay folk hear that "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" we might fall into the grave error of believing that it means what it says..so they must add on to this most important dogma of the Church something that was never taught with it

Typing that last part out, I think that might just be it. "No Salvation Outside the Church" is such a clear and concise statement that anyone who is not familiar with salvation through "invincible ignorance" will, when hearing EENS, understand that the dogma means exactly what it says. So that may be why they always add the dilution after teaching EENS, lest someone who is listening gets the strange notion that Outside the Church..there is no salvation.
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Online Stubborn

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Re: Every. Single. Time.
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2025, 02:13:36 PM »
Quote from: WorldsAway on June 15, 2025, 01:32:07 PM
It's almost as if they believe the dogma, as it has been pronounced by the Church throughout Her history, that there is no salvation outside the Church, is terribly difficult to comprehend..and that when we simple lay folk hear that "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" we might fall into the grave error of believing that it means what it says..so they must add on to this most important dogma of the Church something that was never taught with it
15. Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject  explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecciesiam, etc.,  and ends by denying it - while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it.

What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the Church's Infallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying. - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
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