Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire (Read 35604 times)

Nishant · « **Reply #155 on:** March 22, 2014, 12:08:01 PM »

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He's talking about material heresy not Faith of Desire.

In the past, you have denied that precisely what the quotation says is possible. And your erroneous thinking on the one is related to the other. Do you agree now that some baptized persons can retain faith and charity for a while after coming to the age of reason?

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Again, as I have pointed out, you are not honest.

You have alleged it, but you have not shown it. I could perhaps say the same of you with much more justice. In charity, however, I will abstain. I haven't abused you or called you guys names. I just think your error is very serious, and therefore requires a proportionate response. Theologians unanimously teach (see below for the docuмentation) that to call into question that souls have been saved by baptism of desire and blood is a mortal sin and Pius IX binds us to such morally unanimous teaching of theologians.

The Dimonds may deceive you into thinking you have a right to question these doctrines, or that these are still open "theories" as they say, but they are wrong and your relying on them needlessly endangers your soul.

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Cantarella · « **Reply #156 on:** March 22, 2014, 12:10:13 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

I already told you that you Feeneyites horribly confuse the issue, and this time I think it is deliberate on your part. The only matter discussed by the Doctors and theologians before Vatican II was not at all about baptism of desire but rather about explicit/implicit faith in Christ in those who receive the sacramental effect by this extraordinary means. That is the only topic that the Doctors and others considered an open question and that therefore can be discussed by Catholics, maybe I'll start a thread on that. I believe everything the Doctors believed on this subject, if you think otherwise, quote them against something I have said.

The Dimond link is so absurd it hardly merits a response - one example of their "reasoning" is like this: we know by our private judgment that Pope Innocent III's authoritative teaching is incorrect in other respects (like they imagine on circuмcision and original sin), therefore we use that same private judgment to reject this teaching of his as well. Classic liberals.

Implicit desire being sufficient for salvation is a novelty and is a direct refutation of the dogma "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus". Novelties that contradict revealed Church dogma are heresies. After modernism infected the Church, even Catholic themselves, live under a policy of ambiguity, double talk, concealment, and subtle contradiction, in order to please the world and the non-Catholics.

Calling defenders of EENS as written, derogative terms such as feeneyites, dimondites, and the such; only shows utter ignorance of the authentic Catholic Faith, in the global, universal, historical sense. Also shows a lack of broader understanding on how the modernist heresy plagued the Church since way before 1949. Strict adherence to EENS is what the Church always taught and why She has always came out victorious after so many other heresies and persecutions. This goes far far far beyond Fr. Feeney.

SJB · « **Reply #157 on:** March 22, 2014, 12:34:32 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Nishant
Faith of the Fathers?

Quote from: St. Augustine
But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you

He's talking about material heresy not Faith of Desire. You guys always selectively pull out the quotes from one Father or another that you happen to agree with and then beat everyone on the head with the "you must submit" but then conveniently ignore all the other quotes from the Fathers that you don't like. Again, as I have pointed out, you are not honest.

And you can find no one who agrees with your opinion, which you post here with no source except yourself.

bowler · « **Reply #158 on:** March 22, 2014, 03:24:14 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Nishant
Faith of the Fathers?

Quote from: St. Augustine
But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you

He's talking about material heresy not Faith of Desire. You guys always selectively pull out the quotes from one Father or another that you happen to agree with and then beat everyone on the head with the "you must submit" but then conveniently ignore all the other quotes from the Fathers that you don't like. Again, as I have pointed out, you are not honest.

Not one Father, Saint , Doctor, Council taught salvation of those that have no explicit desire to be baptized , nor explicit desire to be Catholic, nor explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinty. Plus:

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Lover of Truth
http://sedevacantist.com/newmass/qtvjmcn.htm

WHO BELONGS TO THE MYSTICAL BODY?

For one thing, only those who explicitly believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity

DOGMA:

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Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

All of which BODers vehemently deny!

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #159 on:** March 24, 2014, 01:43:45 PM »

I have not followed this thread closely but I'm supposing there is no one left that rejects the infallible doctrine of BOB/D of the Catholic Church on this forum now?