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Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire  (Read 35646 times)

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Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #95 on: March 20, 2014, 02:15:03 PM »
Quote from: Mathieu
Quote from: St Alphonsus Liguori
Extract from : Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7.
Concerning Baptism

Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of desire and of blood.

We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbutero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".



If St. Alphonsus believed that Baptism of Desire was *De Fide*, then does that make him a heretic?


St. Alphonsus: “Baptism of blowing is perfect conversion to God through contrition or through the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire of the true river of baptism whose place it supplies (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4) with respect to the remission of the guilt, but not with respect to the character to be imprinted, nor with respect to the full liability of the punishment to be removed: it is called of blowing because it is made through the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is called a blowing.”  (St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Volume V, Book 6, n. 96)

Latin- “Baptismus flaminis est perfecta conversio ad Deum per contritionem, vel amorem Dei super omnia, cuм voto explicito, vel implicito, veri baptismi fluminis, cujus vicem supplet (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4)  quoad culpae remissionem, non autem quoad characterem imprimendum, nec quoad tollendum omnem reatum poenae: dicitur flaminis, quia fit per impulsum Spiritus Sancti, qui flamen nuncupatur.”


Notice the highlighted part, here St Alphonsus teaches that "BOD" does not provide the remission of the punishment due to sin, however, it is de fide dogma that the grace of Baptism, as defined infallibly, does indeed provides full remission of punishment due to sin,  :scratchchin: then it follows that the BOD st Alphonsus is talking here, cannot provide the grace of Baptism, let alone salvation, as understood in the Infallible Church teaching. In the quote itself, we find then a denial of the efficacy of "desire" for Baptism.  

Trent defines the absolute need to be born again in water and Holy Ghost in order to be justified. This means the removal of every punishment due to sin. There is then a contradiction in St Alphonsus quote since in it, we actually find that the BOD he is speaking of, is not sufficient to obtain this remission of sin, and therefore, justification, first step for Salvation, which is sealed by water Baptism.


 

Offline SJB

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #96 on: March 20, 2014, 02:17:42 PM »
Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire ...


Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #97 on: March 20, 2014, 02:26:46 PM »
Quote from: SJB
Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire ...


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Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2014, 02:40:57 PM »
I doubt that when St Alphonsus wrote his theological speculation about BOD for Catechumens and Martyrs only, he could have possible imagined that his words would be misused and exploited by the heretic liberals to distort truth.

This endless debate would be quite unnecessary if Catholics would just come to their senses again and believe the dogmas as they were for centuries and centuries before the Modernist heresy plagued the Church. Catholics always believed that one must die a Catholic in order to get to Heaven. It is plain simple. It is Satan himself in guise of "sentimental world unity" that is behind this utter distortion of BOD to undermine the key dogma of EENS.

There is not a single BODer here that does not also believe in invincible ignorance. Why is this so important to them? simply because BOD is a loophole in the doctrine of EENS that allows salvation for non-Catholics.  

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2014, 05:18:29 PM »
Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Which three sacraments are "absolutely necessary" for salvation?

You should probably consider what the words "absolutely" and "necessary" mean before you answer.  

The Catholic Church teaches that all those who die in a state of justification are saved.  You cannot deny this, and you should retract your denial of it.  I dare you to find a source that isn't Fr. Feeney to corroborate this belief.  




I am not denying that those who die in a state of justification are saved. What I was emphasizing in the mentioned Trent quote is that we are dealing with different stages in the process of Salvation.  Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. After that, we must persevere in the state of God's grace.



Then you either do not grasp simple logic, or you mis-spoke when you said this:

Quote from: you
Justification can be attained by a person with the Catholic Faith together with at least a desire for the Sacraments. He cannot attain Salvation unless he receives the indispensable Sacraments though. This is because we are under the New Law of Salvation.


If a man dies justified, he goes to Heaven.  But here you are saying that a man can be justified and NOT go to Heaven when you admit that justification can be obtained through BOD, but reserve salvation only for the justified who have received water baptism.  

Final perseverance is the grace granted man to maintain his state of justification at the moment of death.  You mention it as if it were something else.  If a man dies justified, he has been granted the grace of final perseverance.