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Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire  (Read 35686 times)

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Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2014, 06:17:59 PM »
Quote from: Mathieu
Quote from: St Alphonsus Liguori
Extract from : Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7.
Concerning Baptism

Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of desire and of blood.

We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbutero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".

Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.


If St. Alphonsus believed that Baptism of Desire was *De Fide*, then does that make him a heretic?


Just a mistaken theological opinion that cannot contradict Church defined Dogma. Theologians are fallible but The Holy Mother Church does not err. Therefore not saint, bishop, or theologian is the binding teaching authority of the Church. Dogmas are truths from Heaven, not to be superseded by theologians, by inverting their authority.

We are taught de fide by the First Vatican Council that the meaning of sacred doctrine can NEVER change and that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine. Vatican I taught: " The Holy Ghost was not promised to the successor of Peter that by the revelation of the Holy Ghost they might disclose a new doctrine, but by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the Apostles and the deposit of Faith, and might faithfully set it forth"

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2014, 06:33:55 PM »
Quote from: Cantarella

Just a mistaken theological opinion...


Can you please provide any Church authority that has ever said this?


Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2014, 06:37:16 PM »
Quote from: Cantarella

Just a mistaken theological opinion that cannot contradict Church defined Dogma. Theologians are fallible but The Holy Mother Church does not err. Therefore not saint, bishop, or theologian is the binding teaching authority of the Church. Dogmas are truths from Heaven, not to be superseded by theologians, by inverting their authority.

We are taught de fide by the First Vatican Council that the meaning of sacred doctrine can NEVER change and that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine. Vatican I taught: " The Holy Ghost was not promised to the successor of Peter that by the revelation of the Holy Ghost they might disclose a new doctrine, but by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the Apostles and the deposit of Faith, and might faithfully set it forth"

If, then, according to this opinion, St. Alphonsus is *mistaken* and therefore misleading the Faithful with his viewpoint why are not those who are against BOD not railing against *him* more?  His opinion holds greater weight than any BOD proponent on this forum - therefore he, then, is the real enemy, is he not?  Why so much energy wasted on little nobody BOD posters on Cathinfo? Please explain.

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2014, 07:10:04 PM »
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Cantarella

Just a mistaken theological opinion...


Can you please provide any Church authority that has ever said this?


No more that you can provide an infallible dogmatic statement that demonstrates that Baptism of Desire is indeed DE FIDE.

Can you?

So if Baptism of Desire has never been a de fide dogma, it automatically follows that St Alphonsus held a mistaken fallible opinion. We learn this because there is a contradiction between the statement said above and the infallible teachings of the Church on Baptism. There is only ONE Baptism for the remission of Sin, and that of water and of the word.

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2014, 07:18:36 PM »
Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Cantarella

Just a mistaken theological opinion...

Can you please provide any Church authority that has ever said this?


No more that you can provide an infallible dogmatic statement that demonstrates that Baptism of Desire is indeed DE FIDE.


You can not produce a single Church authority that confirms your opinion?

Yet, I and others, have time and time again provided you with authoritative Church  sources teaching exactly the truths you yourself condemn.  So as I survey you on one side of this debate, and Church authorities on the other side, there is really no option as to where my loyalties would be applied.