Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15]

Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire  (Read 21686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 41859
  • Reputation: +23917/-4344
  • Gender: Male
Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #210 on: May 14, 2014, 12:29:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I don't claim it impossible ...


    from earlier

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Baptism and Penance pertain to salvation whereas ordination does not.  This is why the Church infallibly teaches that there is a Baptism of Desire and Perfect Contrition, like her Founder she does not insist upon the impossible.

    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #211 on: May 14, 2014, 12:32:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Is it or is it not true, LoT, that in cases of BoD (conceding for a moment that this exists) God wills that the person should not receive the Sacrament of Baptism but that the person should be saved via BoD.

    Why would God will that someone should be saved via BoD?

    ... now that we've dispensed with this "impossibility" nonsense.


    Please answer this.  We needn't digress into spamming articles which dredge up every single argument regarding BoD.  Let's stick to the matter at hand.
    Logged

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #212 on: May 14, 2014, 02:40:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I don't claim it impossible ...


    from earlier

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Baptism and Penance pertain to salvation whereas ordination does not.  This is why the Church infallibly teaches that there is a Baptism of Desire and Perfect Contrition, like her Founder she does not insist upon the impossible.



    She does not insist that a person get baptized when it is impossible for that person to do so.  Nor for one to go to Confession when it is impossible for them to do so.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  
    Logged
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #213 on: May 14, 2014, 02:42:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Is it or is it not true, LoT, that in cases of BoD (conceding for a moment that this exists) God wills that the person should not receive the Sacrament of Baptism but that the person should be saved via BoD.

    Why would God will that someone should be saved via BoD?

    ... now that we've dispensed with this "impossibility" nonsense.


    Please answer this.  We needn't digress into spamming articles which dredge up every single argument regarding BoD.  Let's stick to the matter at hand.


    Do you agree that God has a positive will and a permissive will (a will that allows that which He does not directly intend)?  I probably could have worded that better but I believe you will understand the question.

    For instance God does not will abortion but allows it.  
    Logged
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #214 on: May 14, 2014, 02:45:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Is it or is it not true, LoT, that in cases of BoD (conceding for a moment that this exists) God wills that the person should not receive the Sacrament of Baptism but that the person should be saved via BoD.

    Why would God will that someone should be saved via BoD?

    ... now that we've dispensed with this "impossibility" nonsense.


    Please answer this.  We needn't digress into spamming articles which dredge up every single argument regarding BoD.  Let's stick to the matter at hand.


    Do you agree that God has a positive will and a permissive will (a will that allows that which He does not directly intend)?  I probably could have worded that better but I believe you will understand the question.

    For instance God does not will abortion but allows it.  


    Bottom line He wills all be saved and does not damn anyone on a technicality.  Those who are aware that sacramental baptism is necessary and purposely avoid it are obviously damned.  Those who are not inculpably ignorant that the Catholic Church is the only Church in which one can be saved but refuse to enter or take the steps necessary for entering are damned.  

     
    Logged
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #215 on: May 14, 2014, 03:20:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    She does not insist that a person get baptized when it is impossible for that person to do so.


    You continue to treat Baptism as necessary by necessity of precept, despite your denials, and you continue to claim that Baptism could be impossible for anyone whom God has chosen to be among His elect, despite your denials.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #216 on: May 14, 2014, 03:23:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Do you agree that God has a positive will and a permissive will (a will that allows that which He does not directly intend)?  I probably could have worded that better but I believe you will understand the question.

    For instance God does not will abortion but allows it.  


    Please answer my question first.

    Permissive will refers to evils not directly willed by God.  This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.  God CAN give the Sacrament of Baptism to anyone He's chosen to save.  If He CAN do so, then it follows that if he does NOT do so, it's because He did not WILL it.

    You continue to talk about how God cannot be constrained by the Sacraments and yet out of the other side of your mouth continue to claim that God can be constrained by impossibility.

    Why would God WILL that someone be saved by Baptism of Desire?

    Logged

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13822
    • Reputation: +5567/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #217 on: May 14, 2014, 04:13:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    She does not insist that a person get baptized when it is impossible for that person to do so.


    You continue to treat Baptism as necessary by necessity of precept, despite your denials, and you continue to claim that Baptism could be impossible for anyone whom God has chosen to be among His elect, despite your denials.


    Neither he nor any NSAAer will answer your clear question, with a clear answer because if they did, they, at least eventually, would be forced into rejecting the error they embrace that No Sacrament At All is necessary for salvation.

    LoT like all NSAAers considers all the sacraments to be little more than a technicality or type of "accident of Providence" which makes the sacraments  merely optional, based on an individual's circuмstances of course.

    In the NSAAers world, God Provides by providing nothing and God substitutes the sacraments with No Sacrament At All at the point of death, and via No Sacrament At All, the person is rewarded salvation!

    The problem with your question is that for NSAAers, it forces God into the whole "salvation by desire" equation.
    Now they need to admit it is God's will that the one who desires the sacrament is not only denied the sacrament by God, but that it is God's will that the person not receive the sacrament God Himself instituted for the singular purpose of our salvation. How's that for a God "Who is the same yesterday, today, yes and forever"?

    If the NSAAers were honest, they'd admit they have no clue why God even instituted any sacrament at all.
     
     
    Your question was excellent and phrased perfectly - it bears repeating.........
    Quote from: Ladislaus

    Is it or is it not true, LoT, that in cases of BoD (conceding for a moment that this exists) God wills that the person should not receive the Sacrament of Baptism but that the person should be saved via BoD.

    Why would God will that someone should be saved via BoD?

    ... now that we've dispensed with this "impossibility" nonsense.



    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #218 on: May 15, 2014, 05:05:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Do you agree that God has a positive will and a permissive will (a will that allows that which He does not directly intend)?  I probably could have worded that better but I believe you will understand the question.

    For instance God does not will abortion but allows it.  


    Please answer my question first.

    Permissive will refers to evils not directly willed by God.  This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.  God CAN give the Sacrament of Baptism to anyone He's chosen to save.  If He CAN do so, then it follows that if he does NOT do so, it's because He did not WILL it.

    You continue to talk about how God cannot be constrained by the Sacraments and yet out of the other side of your mouth continue to claim that God can be constrained by impossibility.

    Why would God WILL that someone be saved by Baptism of Desire?



    God's permissive will allows for one to be cleansed by Baptism of Desire because His Active Will desires their salvation and His Justice and Mercy does not allow them to be condemned to Hell fire due to something they are not culpable of.  Your problem is not with me but with the Catholic Church.  Even Father Feeney understood that Trent taught one can be justified by Desire as did the slew of other Theologians repeatedly provided and the almost countless catechisms.  But all of them are wrong and the new American Feeneyites are right of course.  

    Pray to Alphonsus, Aquinas and Bellarmine that you can be satisfied with what the Catholic Church teaches and not insist on publicly contradicting her giants.  

    God is not locked into technicalities he can cleanse the soul of Original Sin without water and does so.
    Logged
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church
    Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15]
    « previous next »