Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire (Read 35575 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #180 on:** May 13, 2014, 10:53:07 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

It is based on the constant infallible teaching of the Church ...

No it's not. You can find more Church Fathers who explicitly reject BoD than those who accept it. In fact, you can find only one Church Father who clearly teaches it, St. Augustine, and St. Augustine CLEARLY indicates with his language that it's an exercise in speculative theology and then later VERY FORCEFULLY retracts BoD and makes some of the strongest Anti-BOD statements that can be found in any of the Church Fathers.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #181 on:** May 13, 2014, 10:53:45 AM »

Further, do you affirm or deny that Sacramental Baptism in necessary by a necessity of precept and by a necessity of means but not by intrinsic necessity?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #182 on:** May 13, 2014, 10:56:00 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
It is based on the constant infallible teaching of the Church ...

No it's not. You can find more Church Fathers who explicitly reject BoD than those who accept it. In fact, you can find only one Church Father who clearly teaches it, St. Augustine, and St. Augustine CLEARLY indicates with his language that it's an exercise in speculative theology and then later VERY FORCEFULLY retracts BoD and makes some of the strongest Anti-BOD statements that can be found in any of the Church Fathers.

I know you to be sincere my friend but on this issue you are surely misguided. Or do you believe the encyclicals by Pius XI and XII that touched on the issue were not authoritative and infallible?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #183 on:** May 13, 2014, 10:56:03 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

My statement does not completely undermine the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism. When one is baptized with water it is God Who cleanses the soul of Original Sin. Do you affirm or deny this?

If you read my post above, I already explicitly affirm this. You're using this, however, to argue that the Sacrament of Baptism isn't a necessary INSTRUMENTAL CAUSE BY WHICH God does the cleansing, i.e. that God cleanses directly, without the Sacrament of Baptism as an intermediary ... which is denying Trent's teaching on the NECESSITY of Baptism. Your previous argument has been to characterize the necessity as a necessity of precept, but that flies in the face of all the theologians who teach about that subject.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #184 on:** May 13, 2014, 10:58:21 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lover of Truth
It is based on the undeniable fact that God does not condemn a soul to eternal Hell-fire through no fault of his own.

If understood in the sense that you mean it, LoT, that's a Pelagian premise. Nevertheless, all of the sensible suffering in hell is certainly due to personal sin. Not, however, the loss of salvation itself. We can (and perhaps should) certainly believe that God will bring salvation to any adult who has not committed personal sin, but that doesn't mean God will not bring salvation to such people via Catholic Faith and the Sacrament of Baptism.

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It is based upon the fact that it is God who cleanses the soul from Original sin not the water.

That statement completely undermines the necessity for the Sacrament of Baptism taught by Trent. Of course God cleanses, but God has established the Sacrament of Baptism as a necessary instrumental cause, necessary by a necessity of means.

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The Council of Trent taught one can be justified by Baptism of desire ...

It did no such thing; my arguments to the effect that Trent did NOT teach BoD have NEVER been addressed. They are really rock solid; why is why you can't address them.

All of the underlying arguments for BoD are decidedly un Catholic (I'm not talking about citations from authority that allegedly teach BoD but about the theological "reasoning" behind it).

It's some admixture of ...

1) it would not be fair for God to not save someone who has not received Baptism through not fault of their own (What about unbaptized infants? Why can't God just bring such a one to Baptism? Is that not "possible" for God?)

2) God cannot be bound by the Sacraments. (Yet God can be bound by "impossibility"? God cannot BE bound but God certainly can BIND. He has established how were are to be saved, and it's not for us to second-guess that. We need only understand what He has revealed to us with regard to the requirements for salvation. This argument denies Trent's teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.).

Can you at least admit that BOD is not predicated on the idea that it is impossible for God to work a miracle to baptize someone with water? If not can you supply the source that teaches the contrary?