Is God bound by the use of water in conferring the Sacramental character of water?  Hey, SJB, you are BINDING God if you say that the Sacramental character CANNOT be conferred without the pouring of water.  You stupid dishonest buffoon.  Go take a Logic 101 course before you try to argue theology.

The Sacrament is administered by humans. Yes the Sacrament requires water. We are required to use water.

I have quoted the theologians, while you, like a truly arrogant buffoon, have done your own theology. You have yet to quote one single source for the crap you spill onto these threads.

To Ladislaus

You said:

"Firstly, we are talking about extended BoD and not BoD proper"


Our Lord said:


"I poured from it Blood and Water, to show you the baptism of water, which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood, shed for Me, which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also in those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love.
"

What do you mean "we are talking about extended BOD and not BOD proper?"


You said:


"Secondly, material like this cannot be used to form dogma."


The doctrine of original sin was defined through the writings of St Augustine, who was only a theologian. This is a dictation directly from God!



You know you are wriggling to support your position, which is dishonest.


   

Ecclesiasticus 32:21

"A sinful man will flee reproof, and will find an excuse according to his will."



It seems just that if your position is maintained, that Almighty God at your judgement, should permit all those who have expended so much effort in the face of your defiance, to witness your shame, having upheld your own ego above the truth.


Shame on you!!

Are you really that stupid, Ladi? God has bound us thru HIS Church, yet God's grace is not bound by the Sacraments. That does not degrade the Sacraments or "bind" God to the Sacraments.

Again, SJB, you need a Logic 101 course.

If God has bound US in such a way that we cannot be saved without Sacramental Baptism, this doesn't mean that God IS BOUND.  But this not change the fact that Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation, not because God IS BOUND, but because God HAS BOUND us to it.  So the "God not being bound" argument simply does not apply to the question of whether the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  In fact, if you try to twist it backwards the way you do, you are HERETICALLY REJECTING THE NECESSITY OF THE SACRAMENTS FOR SALVATION AS TAUGHT BY TRENT.  So you need to dump this stupid argument ASAP.  That's why I said that it was heretical when Ambrose used it.

To Ladislaus/Canterella/Bowler



You can take the following "private revelation" with you to your individual judgements and tell Christ "I honestly did not believe it"!



"In the Side, where she knew the fire of divine Charity, and so, if you remember well, My Truth manifested to you, when you asked, saying: ’Sweet and Immaculate Lamb, You were dead when Your side was opened. Why then did You want to be struck and have Your heart divided?’ And He replied to you, telling you that there was occasion enough for it; but the principal part of what He said I will tell you. He said: Because My desire towards the human generation was ended, and I had finished the actual work of bearing pain and torment, and yet I had not been able to show, by finite things, because My love was infinite, how much more love I had, I wished you to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to you open, so that you might see how much more I loved than I could show you by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show you the baptism of water, which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood, shed for Me, which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also in those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of fire without the Blood, because the Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because, through love was It shed.  There is yet another way by which the soul receives the baptism of Blood, speaking, as it were, under a figure, and this way the Divine charity provided, knowing the infirmity and fragility of man, through which he offends, not that he is obliged, through his fragility and infirmity, to commit sin unless he wish to do so; but, falling, as he will, into the guilt of mortal sin, by which he loses the grace which he drew from Holy Baptism in virtue of the Blood, it was necessary to leave a continual baptism of Blood. This the Divine charity provided in the Sacrament of Holy Confession, the soul receiving the Baptism of Blood, with contrition of heart, confessing, when able, to My ministers, who hold the keys of the Blood, sprinkling It, in absolution, upon the face of the soul. But, if the soul be unable to confess, contrition of heart is sufficient for this baptism, the hand of My clemency giving you the fruit of this precious Blood. But if you are able to confess, I wish you to do so, and if you are able to, and do not, you will be deprived of the fruit of the Blood. It is true that, in the last extremity, a man, desiring to confess and not being able to, will receive the fruit of this baptism, of which I have been speaking." ~The Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena


Matthew 8:11-12


"And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven:  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

No Catholic is obliged to believe private revelation. In fact, we're cautioned about them. What weight has this paragraph attributed to St Catherine Siena with the following Divine Church dogmatic statement:

"“The Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and preaches that no one remaining outside the Catholic Church, not just pagans, but also Jєωs or heretics or schismatics, can become partakers of eternal life; but they will go to the ‘everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt.25:41), unless before the end of life they are joined to the Church. For union with the body of Christ is of such importance that the sacraments of the Church are helpful to salvation only for those remaining in it; and fasts, almsgiving, other works of piety, and the exercise of Christian warfare bear eternal rewards for them alone. And no one can be saved, no matter how much alms he has given, even if he sheds his blood for the name of Christ, unless he remains in the bosom and unity of the Church”  

Again, Any one who says that we must interpret or understand the meaning of a dogmatic definition, in a way which contradicts its actual wording, is denying the whole point of Infallibility and dogmatic definitions.  Also, those who insist that infallible DEFINITIONS must be interpreted by non-infallible statements (e.g., from theologians, catechisms, etc.) are denying the whole purpose of the Chair of Peter. They are subordinating the Heavenly dogmatic teaching to the re-evaluation of fallible humans thereby inverting their authority.

To Cantarella,


Your response is yet another willful misinterpretation of BOD, which confers the Catholic faith.


   

Romans 6:17

"But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered."


Your defense is about pride and not truth; about wanting to be superior to others and not in a communion of love with them in Christ.

You, Bowler et al are truly as described by Our Lady of La Salette:


"The true faith to the Lord having been forgotten, each individual will want to be on his own and be superior to people of same identity"



And to reject the revelations given to St Catherine, be that they are private revelation, is not an act of prudence but an act of malice:


As St Paul states:


Galatians 1:8

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."



...and so you are all held - a disgrace on earth and in heaven!

Are you a student of Vetus Ordo?
He was a staunch Trad who thought he could interpret Scripture too - - he is now fully prot. - which is where you're heading if you're not already one.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Ladislaus

Is God bound by the use of water in conferring the Sacramental character of water?  Hey, SJB, you are BINDING God if you say that the Sacramental character CANNOT be conferred without the pouring of water.  You stupid dishonest buffoon.  Go take a Logic 101 course before you try to argue theology.

The Sacrament is administered by humans. Yes the Sacrament requires water. We are required to use water.

I have quoted the theologians, while you, like a truly arrogant buffoon, have done your own theology. You have yet to quote one single source for the crap you spill onto these threads.

So you are, as Ambrose said, BINDING GOD by "the externals", aren't you?  God is not BOUND.  God BINDS.  So this is a completely disingenuous argument with gnostic, Protestant, heretical overtones.

Are you really that stupid, Ladi? God has bound us thru HIS Church, yet God's grace is not bound by the Sacraments. That does not degrade the Sacraments or "bind" God to the Sacraments.

Show us a source for the drivel you post here or shut up.

 
You are an embarrassment even to BODers.
You reject the whole idea that the sacraments are really useful and necessary unto salvation - per Trent, we must suppose you despise the sacraments. Which does not, IMO, bode well for you when it comes your turn to seek the last sacrament. If I were you, I'd expect God to leave me with my contrition and desire for the sacrament - and hope it works.


This Remedy To Be Used
The faithful, therefore, having formed a just conception of the dignity of so excellent and exalted a blessing, should be exhorted to profit by it to the best of their ability. For he who makes no use of what is really useful and necessary must be supposed to despise it; particularly since, in communicating to the Church the power of forgiving sin, the Lord did so with the view that all should have recourse to this healing remedy. As without Baptism no one can be cleansed, so in order to recover the grace of Baptism, forfeited by actual mortal guilt, recourse must be had to another means of expiation, -- namely, the Sacrament of Penance.

Ladislaus states:


"You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  BoD does NOT confer the Catholic faith.  Catholic faith is a PREREQUISITE for BoD (assuming it exists).  BoD simply supplies some of the effects of Sacramental Baptism.  Trent teaches that accepting the Catholics faith comes PRIOR to justification in Baptism."




Session 6, Chapter VII, Decree Concerning Justification:

    This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. The causes of justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith He loved us, merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified,…


Thus you cannot have the Catholic faith without Baptism (water, desire or blood), but only a nascence.



As St Thomas explains:


"In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance."

 

By Baptism man is born again unto the spiritual life, which is proper to the faithful of Christ, as the Apostle says (Galatians 2:20): "And that I live now in the flesh; I live in the faith of the Son of God." Now life is only in those members that are united to the head, from which they derive sense and movement. And therefore it follows of necessity that by Baptism man is incorporated in Christ, as one of His members. Again, just as the members derive sense and movement from the material head, so from their spiritual Head, i.e. Christ, do His members derive spiritual sense consisting in the knowledge Of truth, and spiritual movement which results from the instinct of grace. Hence it is written (John 1:14-16): "We have seen Him . . . full of grace and truth; and of His fulness we all have received." And it follows from this that the baptized are enlightened by Christ as to the knowledge of truth, and made fruitful by Him with the fruitfulness of good works by the infusion of grace.

To Canterella:


HOW ABOUT THE WORDS OF GOD! WHICH YOU REJECT!!! THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND YOUR ETERNAL DESTINY!



"In the Side, where she knew the fire of divine Charity, and so, if you remember well, My Truth manifested to you, when you asked, saying: ’Sweet and Immaculate Lamb, You were dead when Your side was opened. Why then did You want to be struck and have Your heart divided?’ And He replied to you, telling you that there was occasion enough for it; but the principal part of what He said I will tell you. He said: Because My desire towards the human generation was ended, and I had finished the actual work of bearing pain and torment, and yet I had not been able to show, by finite things, because My love was infinite, how much more love I had, I wished you to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to you open, so that you might see how much more I loved than I could show you by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show you the baptism of water, which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood, shed for Me, which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also in those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of fire without the Blood, because the Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because, through love was It shed.  There is yet another way by which the soul receives the baptism of Blood, speaking, as it were, under a figure, and this way the Divine charity provided, knowing the infirmity and fragility of man, through which he offends, not that he is obliged, through his fragility and infirmity, to commit sin unless he wish to do so; but, falling, as he will, into the guilt of mortal sin, by which he loses the grace which he drew from Holy Baptism in virtue of the Blood, it was necessary to leave a continual baptism of Blood. This the Divine charity provided in the Sacrament of Holy Confession, the soul receiving the Baptism of Blood, with contrition of heart, confessing, when able, to My ministers, who hold the keys of the Blood, sprinkling It, in absolution, upon the face of the soul. But, if the soul be unable to confess, contrition of heart is sufficient for this baptism, the hand of My clemency giving you the fruit of this precious Blood. But if you are able to confess, I wish you to do so, and if you are able to, and do not, you will be deprived of the fruit of the Blood. It is true that, in the last extremity, a man, desiring to confess and not being able to, will receive the fruit of this baptism, of which I have been speaking." ~The Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena


   

John 8:47


"He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God."


Matthew 8:11-12


"And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven:  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."