Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire (Read 28416 times)

bowler · « **Reply #135 on:** March 21, 2014, 01:27:45 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR

That encyclical has nothing to do with the discussion, your posting it shows that you have no evidence, your frustration. That is called an end run, and circular logic. You don't like what someone posts, so you call it a false doctrine by your own cojones, then post QUANTO CONFICIAMUR.

It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD, that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. You are denying clear dogma.

The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved without explicit belief in Christ

DOGMA:

Quote
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.

BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

BODers deny Creeds

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

SJB · « **Reply #136 on:** March 21, 2014, 01:54:44 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
Your posting here is unorthodox and you should be banned. Matthew is wrong for allowing you to teach others your errors here.

I "teach" no one; I am in no way part of the Ecclesia Docens.

You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #137 on:** March 21, 2014, 03:13:29 PM »

Quote from: SJB

You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Stubborn · « **Reply #138 on:** March 21, 2014, 03:43:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladislaus, I think it is obvious that God has allowed them to blind themselves completely because for all the authorities which have been posted teaching the sacraments are a necessity unto salvation - they keep saying that they do not see any of them.

I am of the opinion that these hypocrites will never wake up, and I wonder if in their last hour that they themselves will get the chance to depend on Extreme Unction of Desire and see how that works for them.

For their sakes, when their turn comes, I hope they are in sanctifying grace, but if not, I hope they're conscious and can muster the same contrition and desire that they've been preaching - to save their soul, as I personally do not believe they should expect God to send them a priest to give them the sacrament after they've repeatedly preached no sacrament is necessary.

By the time they wake up, I fear it will be too late. I keep them in my prayers.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #139 on:** March 21, 2014, 04:52:12 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Baptism of "Desire" does not remit Original Sin. One of the graces of the Sacrament of Baptism is the remission of Original Sin. No soul in Heaven is stained with Sin, Original or actual. If Baptism of Desire is not the real Sacrament as BODers concede, then what it is?

Here, I'll help you. When you die, and your approaching Saint Peter at the very shinny Gates, there is a small sign along the garden path directing those carried by desire to a beautiful gazebo covered baptismal font.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #140 on:** March 21, 2014, 05:05:01 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladislaus, I think it is obvious that God has allowed them to blind themselves completely because for all the authorities which have been posted teaching the sacraments are a necessity unto salvation - they keep saying that they do not see any of them.

No one here is saying the Sacraments are not necessary for Salvation. You keep inflating this target and trying to pin it on people. Seriously, what is wrong with you? It seems impossible for you to communicate without being rude, or condescending, or offensive.

Quote from: Stubborn

I am of the opinion that these hypocrites will never wake up, and I wonder if in their last hour that they themselves will get the chance to depend on Extreme Unction of Desire and see how that works for them.

Your sarcasm is absolutely unacceptable behavior.
I'm pretty spiritually exhausted by your company.

Stubborn · « **Reply #141 on:** March 21, 2014, 05:47:23 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladislaus, I think it is obvious that God has allowed them to blind themselves completely because for all the authorities which have been posted teaching the sacraments are a necessity unto salvation - they keep saying that they do not see any of them.

No one here is saying the Sacraments are not necessary for Salvation. You keep inflating this target and trying to pin it on people. Seriously, what is wrong with you? It seems impossible for you to communicate without being rude, or condescending, or offensive.

It is as I said - you have blinded yourself of your own free will.

You cannot conceive that by you saying salvation is attainable via a BOD, which is not a sacrament, you are saying that no sacrament at all is necessary for salvation.

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Stubborn

I am of the opinion that these hypocrites will never wake up, and I wonder if in their last hour that they themselves will get the chance to depend on Extreme Unction of Desire and see how that works for them.

Your sarcasm is absolutely unacceptable behavior.
I'm pretty spiritually exhausted by your company.

That is sincere, not sarcasm, not by any stretch of your imagination.
If in your mind it is sarcasm, you are further gone than I thought.

If you think that you rate a priest "in case of necessity" when you've been preaching contrition and desire will save an unbaptized person, IMO, you are in for a rude awakening.

Is that a pleasant thing for me to say? No, yet I say it with the hope that you will stop preaching salvation without any sacrament at all, if for no other reason than for your own good - literally.

SJB · « **Reply #142 on:** March 21, 2014, 07:35:11 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladi, you quote them and then explain how they teach us that the theologians and catechisms and the rest are all wrong. That's like a Protestant quoting scripture and maybe some ancient Church Fathers ... and explaining how the Catholic Church is wrong.

Alcuin · « **Reply #143 on:** March 21, 2014, 07:42:48 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladi, you quote them and then explain how they teach us that the theologians and catechisms and the rest are all wrong. That's like a Protestant quoting scripture and maybe some ancient Church Fathers ... and explaining how the Catholic Church is wrong.

If you are right then you condemn yourself. You claim all the theologians got it wrong since the 1960s.

But you have no answer to this.

bowler · « **Reply #144 on:** March 21, 2014, 09:48:51 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ladislaus
You know, at the end of the day, we'll have to just wait for the Holy Pope that God will send to restore the Church. So many have been so deeply poisoned by the modernism that there can be no other remedy.

I pray for that Pope whom God will raise up to reaffirm the dogma EENS and to condemn at least the distorted version of BoD (aka FoD). I long for the day when everyone will return to the Faith of the Fathers.

Will there be any faith left when Our Lord returns?

In the meantime, I am indeed consoled by those of you I have encountered here who still cling to that Faith.

Thanks, that is why we are here, to speak truth.

As for me, I was surprised that these BODers like Ambrose, SJB, LOT, and Anthonywhatever, Nishant and such, when confronted with the challenge of defending the theory of salvation by implicit faith in Christ (the teaching that someone who has no explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity can be saved) isolated by itself, still fight the same as if we were talking about BOD & BOB of the catechumen. I really did not believe they were that far gone. I expected that when they were presented with the fact that it was taught by no Father, Doctor, Saint, council, and that moreover that it is a declared dogma (and in the ancient Athanasian creed) that for one to be saved one must believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, I really expected them to change their ways, however, I can see now that they are lost. Indeed BOD & BOB must be like a drug, in that it ends in sheer lunacy, denying clear dogma, and abandoning all common sense, the Fathers, Doctors, Saints and councils!

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR

That encyclical has nothing to do with the discussion, your posting it shows that you have no evidence, your frustration. That is called an end run, and circular logic. You don't like what someone posts, so you call it a false doctrine by your own cojones, then post QUANTO CONFICIAMUR.

It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD, that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. You are denying clear dogma.

The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved without explicit belief in Christ

DOGMA:

Quote
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.

BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

BODers deny Creeds

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

Ambrose · « **Reply #145 on:** March 21, 2014, 11:22:55 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladi, you quote them and then explain how they teach us that the theologians and catechisms and the rest are all wrong. That's like a Protestant quoting scripture and maybe some ancient Church Fathers ... and explaining how the Catholic Church is wrong.

If you are right then you condemn yourself. You claim all the theologians got it wrong since the 1960s.

But you have no answer to this.

You keep saying this over and over like a broken record. We are only talking about Catholic theologians, not non-Catholic theologians!

Those that lost their Faith in the mid-1960's, lost their membership in the Church, and by that cannot be called Catholic theologians.

Ambrose · « **Reply #146 on:** March 21, 2014, 11:24:12 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

You quote and privately interpret them.

Cantarella · « **Reply #147 on:** March 22, 2014, 12:03:02 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

You keep saying this over and over like a broken record. We are only talking about Catholic theologians, not non-Catholic theologians!

Those that lost their Faith in the mid-1960's, lost their membership in the Church, and by that cannot be called Catholic theologians.

Many traditional Catholics are stuck in the 60's. Do you think that all the Church problems appear overnight after Vatican II? If you do, you are not seeing the big picture. A careful study of Church history is very much needed. We are still living under the heresy of Modernism that started way before Vatican II. And before then, there were other many heresies from which always the Church came out victorious. Arianism and Protestantism come to mind. But we indeed have the promise of victory! although the enemy has always been there and his method is similar: He always wants to turn Catholics away from the purity of Faith by setting "ambiguity" "relativism" "confusion" "division" "human unity" (at the expense of losing the Faith as is).

Many trads condemn the alleged heresies of the conciliar popes, and then go and adhere to the same heresies anyway, therefore being part of the same unclean spirit from Vatican II. What exactly is the heresy of the conciliar popes that you already don't believe in anyway?

Nothing is new under the sun. The enemy, Satan, has always been there, since the beginning of times just under a different guise. Catholic dogmas must be believed as they were always revealed. To say otherwise is to be a part of the problem.

Alcuin · « **Reply #148 on:** March 22, 2014, 12:42:41 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

Ladi, you quote them and then explain how they teach us that the theologians and catechisms and the rest are all wrong. That's like a Protestant quoting scripture and maybe some ancient Church Fathers ... and explaining how the Catholic Church is wrong.

If you are right then you condemn yourself. You claim all the theologians got it wrong since the 1960s.

But you have no answer to this.

You keep saying this over and over like a broken record. We are only talking about Catholic theologians, not non-Catholic theologians!

Those that lost their Faith in the mid-1960's, lost their membership in the Church, and by that cannot be called Catholic theologians.

All of them?? So all the theologians before the 1960s were rock solid?

You don't learn from theologians as you claim..YOU decide whether they are orthodox or not.

Stubborn · « **Reply #149 on:** March 22, 2014, 03:08:06 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SJB
You post your unauthorized explanations as support for your position. You have never quoted an authorized teacher, only disparaged or dismissed them.

Nonsense. I constantly quote from the Church Fathers and from Church Councils.

You quote and privately interpret them.

Dogma is to be understood as declared, not interpreted. That is the only way for all to have the same, universal understanding and universal belief of dogma.

Ambrose, can you honestly say that this infallible decree from Vi means that dogmas are to be interpreted?

Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.

It is in Chapter 4, "On faith and reason" that the Council explains why dogma is not to be interpreted, why dogma is to be understood as "once declared" - you and all BODers should devote 4 minutes of your time and read it.

I am still waiting for you to do the strictly Catholic thing and start a thread and champion defending the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation - that is, after all, the duty of all Catholics.

Or will you finally admit that to do such a thing is an absolute impossibility for you to even consider?

You really should admit that for you and your other BOD cohorts to team up in defense of the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation is just as impossible for you to do as it would be for me and my cohorts to start and champion a thread defending the necessity of a BOD unto salvation.

Have you thought about that? You should. You really should.