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Author Topic: Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire  (Read 35621 times)

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Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #125 on: March 21, 2014, 09:57:57 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
And I call your attention to the following from Innocent III:

Quote from: Innocent III
‘Unless anyone etc.’ [John 3:5] you ought not to doubt that those do not have true baptism in which not only both of the above mentioned (requirements) but one of them is missing.”


So he's teaching that BOTH water AND the Holy Spirit are required, and that if EITHER is missing one cannot have true baptism, i.e. your twisted notion of interpreting Our Lord's words as "water OR ELSE AT LEAST the Holy Spirit" would herein be condemned.


In actuality, reality, and context, the quote reads:

Quote
[From the letter "Non ut apponeres" to Thorias Archbishop of Nidaros]

412 You have asked whether children ought to be regarded as Christians whom, when in danger of death, on account of the scarcity of water and the absence of a priest, the simplicity of some has anointed on the head and the breast, and between the shoulders with a sprinkling of saliva for baptism. We answer that since in baptism two things always, that is, "the word and the element," are required by necessity, according to which Truth says concerning the word: "Going into the world etc." [Luke 16:15; cf. Matt. 28:19], and the same concerning the element says: "Unless anyone etc." [John 3:5 ] you ought not to doubt that those do not have true baptism in which not only both of the above mentioned (requirements) but one of them is missing.


The requirements are "word and element"; The matter and form of the Sacrament.  It would be a logical fallacy to apply this to the topic of the thread, Baptism of Desire, as you have done in your example

Continuing, and quoting you, "I call your attention to the following from Innocent III:"

Quote
[From the letter "Debitum pastoralis officii" to Berthold, the Bishop of Metz, August 28, 1206]

413  You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: "I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen."

 We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when he says to the Apostles: "Go baptize all nations in the name etc." [cf. Matt. 28:19], the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another. . . . If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith.

Offline SJB

Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #126 on: March 21, 2014, 10:02:46 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Father Laisney the Liar:

Quote from: Father Laisney
Such is the case for the doctrine on baptism of desire ... It is found even before this millennium in the very early years of the Church without a single dissenting voice.


Exposed as a complete liar.  There were at least 4-5 Fathers who explicitly rejected BoD (including St. Fulgentius above).


Ladi, you have no source for what you believe, other than yourself. You are opposed to Catholics learning from approved catechisms and manuals, encouraging them to do their own theology from first sources. Your system leads the unsuspecting into error, or directly influences those who give your rumblings some weight when they have ZERO weight.

Your posting here is unorthodox and you should be banned. Matthew is wrong for allowing you to teach others your errors here.


Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #127 on: March 21, 2014, 10:08:32 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
As I have repeatedly pointed out, and none of you have the honesty or decency to admit it, all of these even quasi-authoritative quotes refer to EXPLICIT BAPTISM OF DESIRE.  Yet you twist this diabolically and pretend that this supports your heretical assertion that those who do not confess the faith can be saved.  Both of these quotes refer to the possibility of their being saved by virtue of their "faith in the Sacrament", which I'm sure the Hindu in Tibet has also.


The topic of discussion is Baptism of Desire, the manner and method of which is exclusively the purview of God.  No one here has represented anything other than what the Church has taught.  It is dishonest on your part when you conjure up some deformity and attribute it to others.

If you can not conduct yourself in a civil manner, there is really no point in communicating with you, and if that is so, I will simply elect to HIDE your participation here as I have done with pathetic bowler.







Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #128 on: March 21, 2014, 11:05:30 AM »
Quote from: Nishant
Anyone who denies that souls have been saved by baptism of desire and blood, is guilty of objective mortal sin, because he denies a proposition that is theologically certain, inextricably bound up with Catholic doctrine. Funnily enough, inculpable ignorance alone would excuse you of subjective guilt. Yet you don't believe in it, and make no allowance for it in your judgments, and it is characteristic of divine Justice to judge you by the same standard with which you judged others.

You propagators of this error should cease and desist, and humbly confess the Catholic doctrine.

Quote from: Cantarella
As for the baptized who die before the age of reason who cannot make an act of faith, here is the Church Infallible teaching:

Pope Innocent III Apostoli Letter on Baptism


So now Pope Innocent is infallible in some letters and not in others?

Quote from: Innocent II
To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's "City of God" * where among other things it is written, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian * where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers' and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned.


This is the teaching that the Magisterium has approved. Irrelevant to what was held before, at least after the letter, no one is permitted to hold the contrary. And in fact no one did, all Catholic schools, all theologians, all Saints and Doctors after this point in time teach that there are souls saved by baptism of desire.

Quote from: Innocent III
the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another. . . . If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith


Anyone who denies that souls are saved by baptism of desire and blood is guilty of mortal sin.


No. An implicit faith is not sufficient. A person that has reached the age of reason, is obliged to profess an explicit belief in the Holy Trinity, The Incarnation, and the Catholic Faith before they die. This truth is necessary to believe for Salvation as a necessity of means.

Pope Eugene IV Exultate Deo ex cathedra:
"Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all else to hld the Catholic Faith: unless each one preserve this whole and entire, he will without a doubt perish in eternity...then he defines the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and the necessity to believe in these truths...This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Again, an implicit faith / desire is not enough and furthermore, we are obliged to believe this truth. There is the necessity to explicitly believe and profess the Catholic Faith. Popes such as Pius X, Clement XI, Pius IX all have reaffirm and re-stated this dogma. BODers have fallen pray of liberal ideas and false notions concerning ecuмenism and universal salvation. Watered down, lukewarm Catholics are the real enemies of the Faith and a real thread for the purity of it.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Effects of the Heresy of Denying Baptism of Desire
« Reply #129 on: March 21, 2014, 11:50:51 AM »
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
It would be a logical fallacy to apply this to the topic of the thread, Baptism of Desire, as you have done in your example.


No, it applies because he reads it as a BOTH ... AND rather than your (mis)interpreted EITHER ... OR.

As for the other Innocent III quote, see my posts where that's completely discredited.