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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 9484 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #465 on: February 24, 2020, 08:07:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 23, 2020, 09:18:39 PM
    Actually I think you make a fair argument, but here are my thoughts.... Outside the Church there is no salvation, period. People can become incorporated into the Church unbeknownst to anyone. For instance, a validly baptized Protestant could be given the graces necessary before he dies to make an act of perfect contrition and could be saved unbeknownst to anyone around him.

    In the case of a catechumen who died before receiving baptism and was instructed on the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Redemption, that person could be saved by the desire of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism or by shedding his blood for Christ, provided the person made an act of perfect contrition and was thus in a state of sanctifying grace before he died.

    BTW, just to be clear, in the case of the Protestant above, he did NOT die a Protestant, he died a Catholic. I believe that the Church teaches that persons baptized in heretical sects are still considered members of the Church until they reach the age of 14. Ladislaus, please correct me on this if I’m wrong about that.
    I agree with these thoughts Quo.   Btw, I think the age is the age of reason, 7.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #466 on: February 24, 2020, 08:55:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 24, 2020, 07:23:48 AM
    This idea ^^ is very confused.

    Those struggling with "invincible ignorance about our holy religion" are ignorant about our holy religion - but are seeking, putting forth effort in order to find out, to learn about our holy religion.

    It's not complicated.
    You say "those struggling with invincible ignorance" are not subject to invincible ignorance. To say that does violence to the words themselves.

    Do you know what "invincible ignorance" is?

    "Invincible" is an adjective modifying "ignorance", limiting it. "Invincible ignorance" is not just any ignorance, but ignorance which is "invincible". "Invincible" means unconquerable, unable to be overcome.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #467 on: February 24, 2020, 08:59:05 AM »
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    If it can be overcome, it's not invincible ignorance, and the person is just struggling with ignorance.
    You define "invincibly ignorant" as a permanent state, while I would define it as a temporary state.  How can anyone be invincibly ignorant forever?  Does not Christ "enlighten every man who comes into the world" (John 1)?  Is God unable to conquer invincible ignorance?
    .
    Secondly, where does the Church give us a definition for invincible ignorance?  Oh right, there is none.  So it's an abstract idea which everyone can interpret their own way.  What madness!  If the Church hasn't defined it, so all catholics can understand it the same way, then it's not a catholic term and shouldn't be used when discussing theology.
    .
    Finally, you keep using this anti-Catholic term, yet you have not admitted that Bl Pius IX was quoted out-of-context in his statement where he mentions it.  He later clarified his view, but the modernists who surrounded him had already spread the original mistake far and wide.  Do you or do you not accept Bl Pius IX's correction? 
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #468 on: February 24, 2020, 09:20:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 24, 2020, 08:59:05 AM
    You define "invincibly ignorant" as a permanent state, while I would define it as a temporary state.  How can anyone be invincibly ignorant forever?  Does not Christ "enlighten every man who comes into the world" (John 1)?  Is God unable to conquer invincible ignorance?
    .
    Secondly, where does the Church give us a definition for invincible ignorance?  Oh right, there is none.  So it's an abstract idea which everyone can interpret their own way.  What madness!  If the Church hasn't defined it, so all catholics can understand it the same way, then it's not a catholic term and shouldn't be used when discussing theology.
    .
    Finally, you keep using this anti-Catholic term, yet you have not admitted that Bl Pius IX was quoted out-of-context in his statement where he mentions it.  He later clarified his view, but the modernists who surrounded him had already spread the original mistake far and wide.  Do you or do you not accept Bl Pius IX's correction?
    It's an anti-Catholic term, but Pius IX used it. Yeah right.

    Your first paragraph asks complex issues. I'm not going to write a thesis on this, so don't make a fuss that I haven't included all the distinctions. But yes, I think God could overcome invincible ignorance by way of a miracle. This is not meant to be a statement about the relationship between grace and free will.

    Has the Church defined "blood", "outside", "without"? No. We are capable of understanding ordinary words.

    I am not aware of any statement of the Church prior to V2 that I do not accept. 
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #469 on: February 24, 2020, 09:32:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 24, 2020, 08:07:31 AM
    I agree with these thoughts Quo.   Btw, I think the age is the age of reason, 7.
    Yes, I see why you would say that the age of reason (7) is the age in which baptized Protestant children would still be considered members of the Church. I also believed this to be the case until about 15 years ago when I read in some theology manual that the Church still considers them Catholic until the age of 14 (at least I think so). Father Collins and I discussed this years ago and confirmed what I had read.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #470 on: February 24, 2020, 09:33:32 AM »
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    • I will try to find the reference for what I said above.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #471 on: February 24, 2020, 09:48:13 AM »
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    It's an anti-Catholic term, but Pius IX used it. Yeah right.
    Again, you're missing the point.  His use of the term caused confusion, which he regretted, and it caused him to re-clarify.
    .
    Quote
    Your first paragraph asks complex issues.
    It's not complex, it's directly from Scripture. 
    Scripture = God enlightens all men who come into the world. 
    Doctrine = God's existence is provable, to all men, by way of human reason. 
    Scripture = All men have the natural law written on their hearts.  Ergo, no one is invincibly ignorant of God, nor of the 10 commandments. 
    Doctrine = If they co-operate with grace, and follow the natural law, then any ignorance of the Faith will be enlightened.
    Scripture = God does not "cast pearls before swine" and will not enlighten those who, due to their sinful lives, will not appreciate spiritual things.
    Ergo, no one is created in invincible ignorance of God or their requirements due to Him and their neighbor.  There are only those who are ignorant of the Faith, which ignorance God will cure, if they follow the 10 commandments and seek the truth.  Such ignorance of the Faith is temporary, or permanent, depending on the person's cooperation with actual graces (i.e. following of the natural law).
    .
    For the 2nd time...you have not admitted that Bl Pius IX was quoted out-of-context in his statement where he mentions it.  He later clarified his view, but the modernists who surrounded him had already spread the original mistake far and wide.  Do you or do you not accept Bl Pius IX's correction?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #472 on: February 24, 2020, 10:18:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 24, 2020, 09:32:28 AM
    Yes, I see why you would say that the age of reason (7) is the age in which baptized Protestant children would still be considered members of the Church. I also believed this to be the case until about 15 years ago when I read in some theology manual that the Church still considers them Catholic until the age of 14 (at least I think so). Father Collins and I discussed this years ago and confirmed what I had read.

    14?  That's interesting.  I'd love to see the rationale/explanation for this.
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #473 on: February 24, 2020, 10:39:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 24, 2020, 10:18:43 AM
    14?  That's interesting.  I'd love to see the rationale/explanation for this.
    Yeah, I was surprised too when I read it. I will try to find the reference.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #474 on: February 24, 2020, 10:40:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 24, 2020, 08:55:45 AM
    You say "those struggling with invincible ignorance" are not subject to invincible ignorance. To say that does violence to the words themselves.
    You seem to be unable to read past the word "ignorance" in the sentence of Pope Pius IX. Please complete the sentence by adding the words, "about our holy religion" whenever you say "those struggling with invincible ignorance" so as to complete the sentence. If you do this, you might then see that he is talking abut all those people out there who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our holy religion - at the same time see that he is not talking about invincibly ignorant people, which is to say that he is not talking about people who are incapable of thinking.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #475 on: February 24, 2020, 03:36:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 24, 2020, 10:18:43 AM
    14?  That's interesting.  I'd love to see the rationale/explanation for this.
    I've never heard of 14 being the age a Protestant is no longer considered a Catholic, but if that is the case then that age was likely picked because that's when they make their First Communion in many Protestant denominations. 
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #476 on: February 24, 2020, 05:28:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on February 24, 2020, 03:36:27 PM
    I've never heard of 14 being the age a Protestant is no longer considered a Catholic, but if that is the case then that age was likely picked because that's when they make their First Communion in many Protestant denominations.
    I have yet to find that reference, but I’ll continue to look for it. In the meantime I withdraw my claim until I find it.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #477 on: February 24, 2020, 05:32:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 24, 2020, 09:32:28 AM
    Yes, I see why you would say that the age of reason (7) is the age in which baptized Protestant children would still be considered members of the Church. I also believed this to be the case until about 15 years ago when I read in some theology manual that the Church still considers them Catholic until the age of 14 (at least I think so). Father Collins and I discussed this years ago and confirmed what I had read.
    I trusted Father Collins implicitly (as you know), so if for some reason you can not verify this, I would think that either you misunderstood something he said .... or vice versa. :-)

    Gosh, it's almost been a year, and my heart still aches.  :'(
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #478 on: February 24, 2020, 05:48:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 24, 2020, 05:32:22 PM
    I trusted Father Collins implicitly (as you know), so if for some reason you can not verify this, I would think that either you misunderstood something he said .... or vice versa. :-)

    Gosh, it's almost been a year, and my heart still aches.  :'(
    April 27.  :'( .....
    Yes, I could be mistaken. It won’t be the first time. 😀
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #479 on: February 24, 2020, 07:31:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 24, 2020, 05:28:50 PM
    I have yet to find that reference, but I’ll continue to look for it. In the meantime I withdraw my claim until I find it.

    I could see some principle at work there to use 14 as the age; that's around the time that many cultures have considered children as becoming adults (before the relatively-arbitrary age of 18 was established).  It's also when Confirmation is typically administered (for the same reason).
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