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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15245 times)

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Offline donkath

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #405 on: February 21, 2020, 10:46:18 PM »
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  • Stanley, your problem is that you're not reading that entire section through the lens of Trent.  Trent clearly taught what is required in preparation for baptism, and in preparation for justification - all of these requirements also apply in order to receive BOD.
    .
    You're reading Piux XI through the lens of modernism.  This is where you fall into Pelagianism.  Of all the various mentions of BOD (saints, popes, councils), Trent is the highest authority which mentions it.  So if you ignore Trent's explanation of who BOD applies to, you're going to be led into error by the many modernist/heretical ideals which have tried to (and have been mostly successful in) watering down Trent.


    Objections and Objectors

    The correct interpretation of Pius IX and his condemnation of liberals distortions.

    ..
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #406 on: February 22, 2020, 05:11:45 AM »
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  • Could you try looking at the passage from Pius IX without assuming there's a contradiction? What does it say, then? And you shouldn't neglect the context - it is important to understanding what it says from the BOD perspective.
    I am the one telling you that there is no contradiction. Before the text, he affirms EENS, after the text, he affirms EENS, the text itself *must* agree with what he said before and after it and also affirm EENS. This is elementary. "When you do not understand what is written, you must read what is written directly before and after to read it in context to understand what it means". - Second grade teacher.

    Here is a break down:
    "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion".
    Note that the person is not invincibly ignorant or some native on a desert island. Rather, the person is normal, has intellect, knows how to think and is intelligent in things other than our holy religion but who now struggles with his invincible ignorance about our holy religion, which means he is sincerely trying to find out about our holy religion.


    "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace".
    All human creatures have inscribed by God on their hearts how to live according to the natural law and it's precepts, and to obey God is part of the natural law.
    As long as a person does both; 1) seeks to find out about our holy religion and 2) strives to live according to the natural law and it's precepts, God will lead that person into the Church just as He led you into the Church and will never abandon that person. This is simply the very same Divine Providence that God arranged for you and I and all who are members to be in the Church. It is by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it.

    Once inside the Church, like you and I, he also is able to attain eternal life - provided he, like you and I, cooperates with the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Note that living a virtuous life is not enough and is in fact worthless without also seeking to find our about our holy religion. The pope rightly decries the necessity of both.  


    "Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments".
    Such a person does not exist outside of the Church, as the pope immediately reiterates:

    "Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior".

    Put it all together:
    Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline donkath

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #407 on: February 22, 2020, 06:57:19 AM »
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  • Quote
    Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior"

    The above quote is taken from Pius IX Encyclical :
    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore : On Promotion of False doctrines

    Pope BI. Pius IX - 1863

    Fr. Wathen's pdf. 'Objections and Objectors' posted above goes into it all thoroughly.

    ..
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #408 on: February 22, 2020, 07:28:49 AM »
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  • I hope that for those of you who are promoting Fr Fenney's beliefs that you accept the fact that if your position is correct then the ordinary teaching power of the magisterium is liable to error, and, therefore, the Church can teach Catholics lies. What would be the point of a catechism if it could contain error [according to the Feeneyites]? Are you actually willing to say that the Church has approved an instruction manual for the faithful that can lead them into heresy? Are you seriously going to say that for hundreds of years all the catechisms produced for Christians will lead their souls to hell?

    His Holiness Clement XIII stated that it's impossible for the Roman Catechism to contain error. Therefore, if you're willing to say the catechisms have taught error, because they teach BoD, then you contradict these infallible words of HH. Submit to Church teaching: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/clem13/c13indom.htm

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #409 on: February 22, 2020, 08:08:50 AM »
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  • I hope that for those of you who are promoting Fr Fenney's beliefs that you accept the fact that if your position is correct then the ordinary teaching power of the magisterium is liable to error, and, therefore, the Church can teach Catholics lies. What would be the point of a catechism if it could contain error [according to the Feeneyites]? Are you actually willing to say that the Church has approved an instruction manual for the faithful that can lead them into heresy? Are you seriously going to say that for hundreds of years all the catechisms produced for Christians will lead their souls to hell?

    His Holiness Clement XIII stated that it's impossible for the Roman Catechism to contain error. Therefore, if you're willing to say the catechisms have taught error, because they teach BoD, then you contradict these infallible words of HH. Submit to Church teaching: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/clem13/c13indom.htm

    About a half dozen false assumptions, and Father Feeney's name misspelled.  This is one of the reasons that the radical sedevacantists are the most dogmatic on BoD, because they exaggerate the scope of infallibility to insane levels.  There were some Catechisms right before Vatican I that rejected papal infallibility; these had to be corrected afterwards.  Of course, you falsely assume also that the Roman Catechism teaches BoD, when it does not.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #410 on: February 22, 2020, 08:16:39 AM »
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  • The above quote is taken from Pius IX Encyclical :
    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore : On Promotion of False doctrines

    Pope BI. Pius IX - 1863

    Fr. Wathen's pdf. 'Objections and Objectors' posted above goes into it all thoroughly.

    ..

    Of particular note are the words of Pius IX himself condemning as "atrocious injustice" to him those who would misinterpret his teaching exactly as the modern BoDers do.  He reaffirms that there is no salvation outside of unity with the Church and that to inquire beyond that is impious.  You'll rarely see the dishonest BoDers quote these words.  Instead, they take his teaching out of context and commit the very "atrocious injustice" that the pope here denounces.

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #411 on: February 23, 2020, 07:01:12 AM »
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  • About a half dozen false assumptions, and Father Feeney's name misspelled.  This is one of the reasons that the radical sedevacantists are the most dogmatic on BoD, because they exaggerate the scope of infallibility to insane levels.  There were some Catechisms right before Vatican I that rejected papal infallibility; these had to be corrected afterwards.  Of course, you falsely assume also that the Roman Catechism teaches BoD, when it does not.
    And this is the problem with Gallicans such as yourself and the SSPX: You limit the infallibility of the Universal and Ordinary magisterium to teachings of the Extraordinary magisterium. This was DIRECTLY CONDEMNED by Pius IX at Vatican I: "Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm

    You assert that catechisms are not infallible, and yet also admit that the Church corrected them. That proves all the more that they are protected from error, because clearly the Church caught it after defining the de fide position on infallibility. Again, His Holines Clement XIII makes it abundantly clear in that encyclical I posted that catechisms are used for the instruction of the faithful and CANNOT contain error. If your liberal view of infallibility is correct then the Church's ordinary teaching authority can contain error and the Catholic Church is no different from any other Protestant sect out there.

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #412 on: February 23, 2020, 07:11:51 AM »
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  • Of particular note are the words of Pius IX himself condemning as "atrocious injustice" to him those who would misinterpret his teaching exactly as the modern BoDers do.  He reaffirms that there is no salvation outside of unity with the Church and that to inquire beyond that is impious.  You'll rarely see the dishonest BoDers quote these words.  Instead, they take his teaching out of context and commit the very "atrocious injustice" that the pope here denounces.
    I agree that many in the N.O. abuse the Church's actual position on BoD, but it does not mean you throw the baby out with the bath water as Fr Feeney did. If Saint Alphonsus, Saint Thomas Aquinas, and Saint Bonaventure all believed in BoD then there must not be any problem with it.
    His Holiness Saint Pius X stated in his decree, Quem Singulari, that children ought to be instructed in the the faith via the Roman Catechism: “For first confession and for first communion a full and perfect knowledge of Christian doctrine is not necessary. But the child will be obliged afterwards to learn gradually the whole catechism in accord with his intelligence.” (D 2138) If that is the case then OBJECTIVELY YOU MUST CONCLUDE that HIS HOLINESS SAINT PIUS X was a heretic for promoting heresy, and encouraging children to be instructed in heresy [i.e. since you think the catechism teaches heresy].

    https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9767


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #413 on: February 23, 2020, 07:15:24 AM »
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  • You assert that catechisms are not infallible, and yet also admit that the Church corrected them. That proves all the more that they are protected from error,
    Sorry but this is probably the dumbest thing I've read all week. Are you SERIOUSLY using the fact that errors were corrected as proof that catechisms are infallible(i.e without error? The fact that they were corrected necessarily means there were previous catechisms which contained error, therefore proving that catechisms MUST be fallible.

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #414 on: February 23, 2020, 07:33:51 AM »
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  • About a half dozen false assumptions, and Father Feeney's name misspelled.  This is one of the reasons that the radical sedevacantists are the most dogmatic on BoD, because they exaggerate the scope of infallibility to insane levels.  There were some Catechisms right before Vatican I that rejected papal infallibility; these had to be corrected afterwards.  Of course, you falsely assume also that the Roman Catechism teaches BoD, when it does not.
    Also, it most certainly does teach baptism of desire. Council of Trent Session 6 Chp. 4 which reads: "A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    Saint Pius V always quoted Trent in favor of BoD. Also, canon law teaches BoD: Canon 1239.2 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law declares, “catechumens who through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as Baptized.”

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #415 on: February 23, 2020, 07:43:13 AM »
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  • Also, it most certainly does teach baptism of desire. Council of Trent Session 6 Chp. 4 which reads: "A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    Saint Pius V always quoted Trent in favor of BoD. Also, canon law teaches BoD: Canon 1239.2 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law declares, “catechumens who through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as Baptized.”

    While the Church has kept the question open, it has never defined it as something that must be believed.  You'll note that both of these deal with catechumens; there is zero support anywhere that BoD applies to anyone other than catechumens.  

    When Canon Law is saying that they are to be "treated as Baptized," it means for the purposes of the law.  Previous statement says, "only the baptized are allowed to receive Christian burial".  Then this statement you quoted follows, that catechumens are to be treated as baptized.  In other words, ALL it's saying is that catechumens are allowed to receive a Christian burlal (as per the previous statement) and absolutely nothing more.  It is no broader doctrinal statement on BoD.  Earlier in Church history, the Canon stipulated that catechumens are NOT to receive Christian funeral rights.  So if this is binding doctrine, then the earlier Canons were also binding doctrine, right?  Of course, you pick and choose whichever ones you happen to like.

    As for Trent, it is teaching that BOTH are needed.  "CANNOT WITHOUT" refers to a necessary cause but not a sufficient cause.  Trent is teaching that one cannot be justified without both the Sacrament and the desire to receive it.  Trent's main teaching is that the Sacraments work based on a combination of completely free grace working ex opere operato along with cooperation of the will.  There's actually a Canon which condemns the proposition that the Sacraments work magically even without the will to receive them.

    We have a bunch of Trad-Prots here who like to yank one statement completely out of context and misrepresent it as teaching doctrine ... just like Prots do with Scripture.  Hey, it says "call no man father," see?  You do the same thing, except the only difference is that you acknowledge two sources of revelation, and they only one.


    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #416 on: February 23, 2020, 07:58:01 AM »
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  • Sorry but this is probably the dumbest thing I've read all week. Are you SERIOUSLY using the fact that errors were corrected as proof that catechisms are infallible(i.e without error? The fact that they were corrected necessarily means there were previous catechisms which contained error, therefore proving that catechisms MUST be fallible.
    When Ladislaus originally responded to my first statement my phrase which stated that catechisms are free from error was rendered to "infallible". Excuse me for not clarifying, but what I meant is that catechisms are similar to books which receive the imprematur. According to what the Church teaches the ordinary magisterium may produce an imprematur for something which was written. With that being said, such a said book would be deemed as safe for any Catholic to read [i.e. free from error]. However, if such a book were found to have an error then it would be restricted thereafter. Despite having received the imprematur. The same would be said about catechisms. I was not saying that they are infallible when they are written, as say an ex cathedra statement would, but they are deemed safe for Catholics to read. So, if the anti-BoD position is correct, then that means that such a level of authority in the Church COULD ALWAYS contain error, and the ordinary teaching power of the magisterium would be defective. In that case we'd be no different from the Protestants, and Catholics could be reading anything that's heretical. 

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #417 on: February 23, 2020, 08:21:33 AM »
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  • Sorry but this is probably the dumbest thing I've read all week. Are you SERIOUSLY using the fact that errors were corrected as proof that catechisms are infallible(i.e without error? The fact that they were corrected necessarily means there were previous catechisms which contained error, therefore proving that catechisms MUST be fallible.
    The same sort of thinking also applies to encyclicals. They do not bind Catholics under pain of sin, but it doesn't mean you can reject them either. Pius XII made this clear: "It is not to be thought that what is set down in Encyclical Letters does not demand assent in itself, because in these the popes do not exercise the supreme powers of their magisterium. For these matters are taught by the ordinary magisterium, regarding which the following is pertinent 'He who heareth you, heareth me.'; and usually what is set forth and inculcated in Encyclical Letters, already pertains to Catholic doctrine." Humani Generis (1950), D 2313.

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #418 on: February 23, 2020, 08:27:49 AM »
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  • While the Church has kept the question open, it has never defined it as something that must be believed.  You'll note that both of these deal with catechumens; there is zero support anywhere that BoD applies to anyone other than catechumens.  

    When Canon Law is saying that they are to be "treated as Baptized," it means for the purposes of the law.  Previous statement says, "only the baptized are allowed to receive Christian burial".  Then this statement you quoted follows, that catechumens are to be treated as baptized.  In other words, ALL it's saying is that catechumens are allowed to receive a Christian burlal (as per the previous statement) and absolutely nothing more.  It is no broader doctrinal statement on BoD.  Earlier in Church history, the Canon stipulated that catechumens are NOT to receive Christian funeral rights.  So if this is binding doctrine, then the earlier Canons were also binding doctrine, right?  Of course, you pick and choose whichever ones you happen to like.

    As for Trent, it is teaching that BOTH are needed.  "CANNOT WITHOUT" refers to a necessary cause but not a sufficient cause.  Trent is teaching that one cannot be justified without both the Sacrament and the desire to receive it.  Trent's main teaching is that the Sacraments work based on a combination of completely free grace working ex opere operato along with cooperation of the will.  There's actually a Canon which condemns the proposition that the Sacraments work magically even without the will to receive them.

    We have a bunch of Trad-Prots here who like to yank one statement completely out of context and misrepresent it as teaching doctrine ... just like Prots do with Scripture.  Hey, it says "call no man father," see?  You do the same thing, except the only difference is that you acknowledge two sources of revelation, and they only one.
    So you accept explicit BoD? If that is the case then accept implicit BoD. Implicit BoD still conforms perfectly with EENS, because if one who is ignorant of the faith, and has no possible means to arrive at the faith [except through revelation], he can implicitly desire the faith. Implicitly, i.e. one has no knowledge of the essential truths of faith, but still accepts them if he believes God rewards good and punishes evil, etc. So long as he does not accept a false faith that perfectly conforms with EENS.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #419 on: February 23, 2020, 09:35:44 AM »
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  • So you accept explicit BoD? If that is the case then accept implicit BoD. Implicit BoD still conforms perfectly with EENS, because if one who is ignorant of the faith, and has no possible means to arrive at the faith [except through revelation], he can implicitly desire the faith.

    Total nonsequitur.  Explicit BoD for catechumens comes from the fact that they belong in a way to the visible Church.  St. Robert Bellarmine indicated that he felt it was possible by virtue of the fact that they are "in the vestibule" of the visible Church.  In other words, they have one foot in the door.  St. Robert, following Tridentine ecclesiology, declared that membership in the Church, a VISIBLE SOCIETY, consists of 1) receiving the Sacraments, 2) professing the faith, and 3) being subject to the Holy Father.  Catechumens meet one of these criteria, profession of the faith, and could be said to be imperfect members of the Church.

    Going beyond a catechumen immediately leads to an invisible Church, which is precisely the Protestant ecclesiology that Trent was condemning.

    As even Rahner admits --
    Quote
    “. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.” (Rahner, Karl, Theological Investigations, Volume II, Man in the Church, translated by Karl H. Kruger, pp.40, 41, 57)

    So, absolutely not, just because one accepts an explicit BoD for catechumens, implicit BoD for those who in no way adhere to the visible Church does not follow.