Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 9472 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10060
  • Reputation: +5256/-916
  • Gender: Female
Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #270 on: February 12, 2020, 03:37:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I haven't read past reply 57, so this may have been dealt with but...

    Praeter writes there

    Isn't dogmatic anti-sedevacantism disallowed here?
    Nadir, you must be joking.  Dogmatic anti-sedevacantism has always been allowed here. Only Dogmatic Sedevacantism is not.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11672
    • Reputation: +6996/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #271 on: February 12, 2020, 03:56:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ah! I expressed myself badly. I should have pointed out that Praeter has said that 
    "the Dimond Brothers and other sedevacantists or sedeprivationists....themselves are outside the Church".

    Is it allowed to declare such things here?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23938/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #272 on: February 12, 2020, 04:36:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ah! I expressed myself badly. I should have pointed out that Praeter has said that
    "the Dimond Brothers and other sedevacantists or sedeprivationists....themselves are outside the Church".

    Is it allowed to declare such things here?

    Well, no, it shouldn't be.  You see, declaring people with opposing theological viewpoints to be outside the Church is PRECISELY the problem with dogmatic sedevacantism; it's what leads to a schismatic attitude.  It's perfectly OK to claim that a certain opinion is heretical or schismatic, objectively speaking, but to declare people outside the Church on your own authority itself entails a schismatic attitude.  AT WORST, the sedevacantists are wrong in their application of principles taught by St. Robert Bellarmine to this crisis.  That would be an error, a mistake.  But, then, given the enormity of this particular crisis, I think that many people of good will who have the faith are susceptible to making mistakes.

    This is precisely the attitude of Archbishop Lefebvre toward sedevacantism:
    Quote
    The question is therefore definitive: is Paul VI, has Paul VI ever been, the successor of Peter? If the reply is negative: Paul VI has never been, or no longer is, pope, our attitude will be that of sede vacante periods, which would simplify the problem. Some theologians say that this is the case, relying on the statements of theologians of the past, approved by the Church, who have studied the problem of the heretical pope, the schismatic pope or the pope who in practice abandons his charge of supreme Pastor. It is not impossible that this hypothesis will one day be confirmed by the Church.

    Sedevacantists are merely Catholics who "rely... on the statements of theologians of the past, approved by the Church, who have studied the problem of the heretical pope".  AT WORST, they make a mistake in applying these statements to the crisis.  But +Lefebvre even goes so far as to say, effectively, "and they may in fact be right."  These dogmatic sedeplenists or dogmatic R&R have no ally in Archbishop Lefebvre himself.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #273 on: February 13, 2020, 04:34:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • AT WORST, they make a mistake in applying these statements to the crisis.
    This is what they hope is the worst anyway, but most actually believe that this would be the best case scenario.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23938/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #274 on: February 13, 2020, 04:42:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is what they hope is the worst anyway, but most actually believe that this would be the best case scenario.  

    No, best case from their perspective is obviously that they're actually right.  +Lefebvre repeatedly stated that they could in fact be right.  I love it how so many self-proclaimed followers of +Lefebvre are dogmatic anti-sedevacantists when +Lefebvre was most certainly not; then they get upset at the suggestion that +Lefebvre was not dogmatic R&R, claim that the sedevacantists are lying when they produce verifiable quotations straight from The Angelus website, and throw tantrums in the face of indisputable proof.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10060
    • Reputation: +5256/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #275 on: February 13, 2020, 04:44:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ah! I expressed myself badly. I should have pointed out that Praeter has said that
    "the Dimond Brothers and other sedevacantists or sedeprivationists....themselves are outside the Church".

    Is it allowed to declare such things here?
    I don't see the difference in what you said/asked.  My response is the same.  Dogmatic anti-sedevacantists have always been allowed to continue posting that sedevacantists are outside the Church, are schismatic, etc, etc. They are never banned for this. Only sedevacantists are not allowed to judge non-sedevacantists outside of the church ...and have been banned for it.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #276 on: February 13, 2020, 05:21:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, best case from their perspective is obviously that they're actually right.  +Lefebvre repeatedly stated that they could in fact be right.  I love it how so many self-proclaimed followers of +Lefebvre are dogmatic anti-sedevacantists when +Lefebvre was most certainly not; then they get upset at the suggestion that +Lefebvre was not dogmatic R&R, claim that the sedevacantists are lying when they produce verifiable quotations straight from The Angelus website, and throw tantrums in the face of indisputable proof.
    It's always best for sedes to leave +ABL out of the sede conversations. He was never one and he never promoted the idea, rather, if anything, the opposite is true, as such, the best references sedes should use would be some others, like Ibranyi or the Dimonds or some other sede. I don't know why they very rarely use them.

    Regardless of what the sedes believe, when I said most, I meant most non-sede Catholics actually believe that the sede's best case scenario is that they are only mistaken.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23938/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #277 on: February 13, 2020, 06:51:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • ...I meant most non-sede Catholics actually believe that the sede's best case scenario is that they are only mistaken.

    That's just based on bad will and wishful thinking on your part.  +Lefebvre felt that they were very possibly right, so I guess he doesn't fall into your group of "non-sede Catholics".


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #278 on: February 13, 2020, 07:17:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's just based on bad will and wishful thinking on your part.  +Lefebvre felt that they were very possibly right, so I guess he doesn't fall into your group of "non-sede Catholics".
    Not so, I actually hope that at some point in time that they are proven right the only way possible - by a future pope declaring as much. But if they are wrong, then they will suffer the consequences of being wrong. For non-sedes, this is the risk we are not willing to take, especially when there is no reason whatsoever to ever even consider taking that risk. Do not mistake my lack of liberal thinking with bad will and wishful thinking.

    +ABL speculated the sedes might be right but he never went sede, choosing instead to stick with tradition. He never thought it was a good idea or ever told anyone to become a sede, but he did expel sedes from his seminaries, who in turn went off and started their own sede groups.

    Still, best if sedes stick to referencing their own, like Ibranyi and Dimonds, Fr. Cekada and +Sanborn and +CMRI and etc,. After all, it only makes sense that non-sedes never reference sedes to support non-sedeism, just as it makes no sense whatsoever to reference +ABL to support sedeism as if he was a supporter of it.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ascanio1

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 400
    • Reputation: +53/-33
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #279 on: February 13, 2020, 07:31:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I’ll try to do some research.  I’m Ukrainian rite btw.
    I found these:



    ... and others but I am afraid to learn from adulterated content. After 40 years in V II I do not want to reiterate my error to take for granted what I am offered. Even (especiallly) when offered from official sources.

    Also, I apologies for my ignorance, but from these videos I would assume that you do recognize the authority of the Holy Father, not the Russian Patriarch... One video suggests that there is conflict over the Filioque dogma but the first I listed suggests that you share it.

    My wife's very good friend is Ukranian and Christian, but not Orthodox. I therefore assume she is of one of the 21 eastern rites. I am trying to understand what rite exactly her friend adheres to, but she only speaks Russian and I do not communicate directly with her. Anyway, from what I understand her friend believes the Filioque dogma and also recognizes the Holy Father (mind you, she's extremely critical of his opinions) and this, for me, is a ray of light since my wife is Orthodox, and I am hoping to learn that non Roman rites, as the Eastern rites, perhaps may be closer to the Orthodox religion, and make the transition easier.

    Do you celebrate Mass in English, Russian, Ukranian or Latin? Do you sign yourself starting from the left or the right? Do you use three joint fingers? Do you believe the transubstantiation (two videos suggest that, yes, you do)?

    But most importantly of all, does your rite (not you, personally) believe in strict EENS or lax EENS? I could not appreciate this from any of the videos (I googled Eastern rites EENS).

    Sorry for all these questions and thank you for your time in searching for correct videos.
    Tommaso
    + IHSV

    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1208
    • Reputation: +530/-484
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #280 on: February 13, 2020, 08:54:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Do you celebrate Mass in English, Russian, Ukranian or Latin? Do you sign yourself starting from the left or the right? Do you use three joint fingers? Do you believe the transubstantiation (two videos suggest that, yes, you do)?

    But most importantly of all, does your rite (not you, personally) believe in strict EENS or lax EENS? I could not appreciate this from any of the videos (I googled Eastern rites EENS).
    The Eastern Catholic rites are Catholic and believe all the doctrines of the Catholic church. There may be some differences on undefined points, such as whether Our Lady died or not before the Assumption. Ukrainian-rite trained clergy tend to be conservative.
    The liturgy of the Ukrainian Catholic Church was traditionally in Old Slavonic, a language standardized and transcribed by Sts. Cyril and Methodius. But in my experience, in the West most liturgies today are celebrated in Ukrainian or English with some hymns in Slavonic. 


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23938/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #281 on: February 13, 2020, 08:59:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • +ABL speculated the sedes might be right but he never went sede, choosing instead to stick with tradition.

    OK, we all know this, man.  All we're saying is that unlike many of his followers, he was never dogmatic anti-sede.

    Offline ascanio1

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 400
    • Reputation: +53/-33
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #282 on: February 13, 2020, 09:04:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • OK, we all know this, man.  All we're saying is that unlike many of his followers, he was never dogmatic anti-sede.
    OT: if one believes that in 1958 Cardinal Siri was elected, but not elevated, to the see of Peter, is one sedevacantist?
    Tommaso
    + IHSV

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41888
    • Reputation: +23938/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #283 on: February 13, 2020, 02:04:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • OT: if one believes that in 1958 Cardinal Siri was elected, but not elevated, to the see of Peter, is one sedevacantist?

    Technically, the term sedevacantist would not have applied for someone who believed that Siri was the pope ... before he died in 1989 of course.  Similarly, sedevacantist doesn't really apply to those who think that Benedict XVI is still pope ... rather than Francis.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #284 on: February 14, 2020, 05:31:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not so, I actually hope that at some point in time that they are proven right the only way possible - by a future pope declaring as much. But if they are wrong, then they will suffer the consequences of being wrong. For non-sedes, this is the risk we are not willing to take, especially when there is no reason whatsoever to ever even consider taking that risk. Do not mistake my lack of liberal thinking with bad will and wishful thinking.

    +ABL speculated the sedes might be right but he never went sede, choosing instead to stick with tradition. He never thought it was a good idea or ever told anyone to become a sede, but he did expel sedes from his seminaries, who in turn went off and started their own sede groups.

    Still, best if sedes stick to referencing their own, like Ibranyi and Dimonds, Fr. Cekada and +Sanborn and +CMRI and etc,. After all, it only makes sense that non-sedes never reference sedes to support non-sedeism, just as it makes no sense whatsoever to reference +ABL to support sedeism as if he was a supporter of it.

     
    well there aren't any sedes with the same stature as ABL to reference.  Sedes are using ABL to basically say, well even the founder of R + R didn't think Sedevacantism was *heresy* and its adherents outside the Church.  I think its fair to appeal to him for that, albeit he could have been wrong.

    That being said, you say "if they are wrong they will suffer the consequences of being wrong."  That might be the case, but its also possible God would show mercy.  I think that's more likely actually.