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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15472 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #240 on: February 11, 2020, 05:12:10 AM »
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  • Garbage. Church Fathers all had a "strict" interpretation of EENS.  So strict, that about a half dozen of them explicitly REJECTED Baptism of Desire.
    I'd like to know who coined the term, "strict interpretation" anyway. Was it +Cushing?

    I found this interesting, it's from Fr. Michael Mueller's book, "The Catholic Dogma: Ecclesiam Nullus Omnino Salvatur" 1875 (attached)

    The book begins:
    Preface. Necessary to be Read. [every dogma admits of no interpretation contrary to that which it has
    received from the beginning.]
    ......

    ....It must be remembered that every Catholic dogma is a revealed truth that has always been held by the Fathers
    of the Church from the beginning and must, therefore, be interpreted, not according to modern opinions and
    latitudinarian principles, but according to the faith of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church; and therefore
    Vincent of Lerins says: "A true Catholic is he who loves the truth revealed by God, who loves the Church, the
    Body of Christ, who esteems religion, the Catholic faith, higher than any human authority, talents, eloquence,
    and philosophy; all this he holds in contempt, and remains firm and unshaken in the faith which, he knows, has
    always from the beginning been held by the Catholic Church; and if he notices that any one, no matter
    who he may be, interprets a dogma in a manner different from that of the Fathers of the Church,
    he understands that God permits such an interpretation to be made, not for the good of religion,
    but as a temptation, according to the words of St. Paul: ‘For there must be also heresies; that they
    also, who are reproved, may be made manifest among you.’ (I Cor. xi. 19) ‘And indeed, no sooner are
    novel opinions proclaimed, than it becomes manifest what kind of a Catholic a man is:’ (Commonit.) Hence, as
    St. Augustine says, ‘a theologian who is humble, will never teach anything as true Catholic doctrine, unless he
    is perfectly certain of the truth which he asserts, and proves it from Holy Scripture and the Tradition of the Church.’
    Those who have learned theology well,’ says St. Basil, will not allow one iota of Catholic dogmas to be betrayed.
    They will, if necessary, willingly undergo any kind of death in their defence.’

    "They will propose each dogma, especially the all-important dogma, "out of the Church there is No salvation," in
    the words of the Church and explain it as she understands it; they are most careful not to weaken in the least the
    meaning of this great dogma, by the way of proposing or explaining it. Why does not St. Paul say: if any one
    preach to you a Gospel contrary to that instead of beside that which. we have preached to you? ‘It is,’ says St.
    John Chrysostom, ‘to show us that one is accursed who even indirectly weakens the least truth of the Gospel.’
    (Cornelius a Lapide in Epist. ad Gal. I. 8)"
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #241 on: February 11, 2020, 07:29:36 AM »
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  • I'd like to know who coined the term, "strict interpretation" anyway. Was it +Cushing?

    Praeter used the term earlier in this thread, without defining it.  So I asked him to define it, but he has not yet done so.  One person's "strict" is another's "lax".  It's a bit subjective.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #242 on: February 11, 2020, 08:05:26 AM »
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  • Praeter used the term earlier in this thread, without defining it.  So I asked him to define it, but he has not yet done so.  One person's "strict" is another's "lax".  It's a bit subjective.
    I don't know about Cushing but Ratzinger used the "strict interpretation" term in his letter permitting that position.  I don't know if he defined it but it was used in the context of the Saint Benedict Center controversy so I assume that he was allowing the SBC position to be held.  I don't recall any reference to BOD in that letter.  It was just in regard to EENS.  So at the very least, the St Thomas Aquinas position (catechumens only) is permissible in the Conciliar Church.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #243 on: February 11, 2020, 08:23:03 AM »
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  • I don't know about Cushing but Ratzinger used the "strict interpretation" term in his letter permitting that position.  I don't know if he defined it but it was used in the context of the Saint Benedict Center controversy so I assume that he was allowing the SBC position to be held.  I don't recall any reference to BOD in that letter.  It was just in regard to EENS.  So at the very least, the St Thomas Aquinas position (catechumens only) is permissible in the Conciliar Church.

    Right, I defy any of the BoD proponents to denounce the catechumen-only position as wrong for a Catholic to hold.

    1917 Code of Canon Law specifies catechumens only.
    Church Fathers limited BoB to catechumens (only 1 or arguably 2 Church Fathers ever temporarily believed in BoD)
    St. Thomas presumably limited it to catechumens, but at the very least to those with explicit faith.
    St. Robert Bellarmine explicitly limited it to catechumens.
    Context of Trent was with regard to those who had ALL the dispositions described for Baptism, aka, catechumens.
    Roman Catechism was talking about catechumens (those being actively instructed in the faith)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #244 on: February 11, 2020, 08:35:51 AM »
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  • The reason I do not equate Archbishop Lefebvre, Praetor and XavierSem with the modernists is that they are clearly trying to hold to what they think the Church teaches.  Whereas, the Ratzingers and Rahners are all very open about their resistance to what they know is the Church's traditional doctrine.

    Well, sure, that would be the FORMAL aspect.  To me that part is difficult to judge, since it's more in the internal forum.  While Ratzinger and Rahner do show SOME signs of caring about what the Church has historically taught, but they do not shy away from Modernist attitudes in many things.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #245 on: February 11, 2020, 09:16:12 AM »
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  • Well, sure, that would be the FORMAL aspect.  To me that part is difficult to judge, since it's more in the internal forum.  While Ratzinger and Rahner do show SOME signs of caring about what the Church has historically taught, but they do not shy away from Modernist attitudes in many things.
    Agreed about the difficulty in making judgements about these things but bishops and priests do have to make these judgements.  They make these judgements in the internal forum.  That's what confession is.  It is a judgement in the internal forum.  See Boscaren and Ellis for example.  They specifically identify confession as the internal forum.  As laymen we have to be very careful about making rash judgements but never the less we do make these judgements too.  The crisis makes these judgements all the more difficult.  Prior to Vatican 2 we could defer any judgement to the local priest or bishop.  But now we effectively have no ordinaries (for sedes there are no ordinaries, for R&R there are no ordinaries that they are willing to obey).  My approach is to assume that all traditionalists are trying to please God and that all Novus Ordo people are trying to please themselves.  I know that there are some Novus Ordo people that are sincerely trying to please God but they have to prove it before I will believe it (not that I require a great deal of proof).  Whereas for traditionalists, they have to do something evil before I will believe that they are bad willed.  Being wrong about some theological issue isn't enough evidence for me to judge they are bad willed.  I would need evidence that they don't care what the Church teaches.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #246 on: February 11, 2020, 09:34:42 AM »
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  • Agreed about the difficulty in making judgements about these things but bishops and priests do have to make these judgements.  They make these judgements in the internal forum.  That's what confession is.  It is a judgement in the internal forum.  See Boscaren and Ellis for example.  They specifically identify confession as the internal forum.  As laymen we have to be very careful about making rash judgements but never the less we do make these judgements too.  The crisis makes these judgements all the more difficult.  Prior to Vatican 2 we could defer any judgement to the local priest or bishop.  But now we effectively have no ordinaries (for sedes there are no ordinaries, for R&R there are no ordinaries that they are willing to obey).  My approach is to assume that all traditionalists are trying to please God and that all Novus Ordo people are trying to please themselves.  I know that there are some Novus Ordo people that are sincerely trying to please God but they have to prove it before I will believe it (not that I require a great deal of proof).  Whereas for traditionalists, they have to do something evil before I will believe that they are bad willed.  Being wrong about some theological issue isn't enough evidence for me to judge they are bad willed.  I would need evidence that they don't care what the Church teaches.

    Right.  With Traditional Catholics, we can safely presume their intention to be subject to Church teaching (although some outlying R&R types might not be).  Even in the Novus Ordo, you can usually spot within 5 minutes the person who professes the true faith and has a spirit of subjection to Church teaching.  There are many in the Novus Ordo who are in material error only, who mistakenly think that the Church taught x, y, or z.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #247 on: February 11, 2020, 09:38:49 AM »
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  • Agreed about the difficulty in making judgements about these things but bishops and priests do have to make these judgements.  They make these judgements in the internal forum.  That's what confession is.  It is a judgement in the internal forum.  See Boscaren and Ellis for example.  They specifically identify confession as the internal forum.  As laymen we have to be very careful about making rash judgements but never the less we do make these judgements too.  The crisis makes these judgements all the more difficult.  Prior to Vatican 2 we could defer any judgement to the local priest or bishop.  But now we effectively have no ordinaries (for sedes there are no ordinaries, for R&R there are no ordinaries that they are willing to obey).  My approach is to assume that all traditionalists are trying to please God and that all Novus Ordo people are trying to please themselves.  I know that there are some Novus Ordo people that are sincerely trying to please God but they have to prove it before I will believe it (not that I require a great deal of proof).  Whereas for traditionalists, they have to do something evil before I will believe that they are bad willed.  Being wrong about some theological issue isn't enough evidence for me to judge they are bad willed.  I would need evidence that they don't care what the Church teaches.
    I don't know precisely how you define "novus ordo" but at the minimum I think you need to have a more charitable bar for those who have converted from Protestantism (I know a lot of people who have done so.)  They may not be perfect, but I've never met somebody who converted from Protestantism for any reason other than to please God.  Whereas when it comes to cradle Catholics, yeah that's gonna be more common


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #248 on: February 11, 2020, 09:49:09 AM »
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  • ...My approach is to assume that all traditionalists are trying to please God and that all Novus Ordo people are trying to please themselves.  I know that there are some Novus Ordo people that are sincerely trying to please God but they have to prove it before I will believe it (not that I require a great deal of proof).  Whereas for traditionalists, they have to do something evil before I will believe that they are bad willed.  Being wrong about some theological issue isn't enough evidence for me to judge they are bad willed.  I would need evidence that they don't care what the Church teaches.
    It doesn't always work, but I try to deal with them with this attitude also, that they are sincere but only mistaken....and will not be convinced that they are mistaken.

    The thing that gets me is that for those who've read "The Letter" and believe what it says is a teaching of the Church, re: “... Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing". If in fact it really was a teaching of the Church, then it makes the whole idea of excommunications and even lesser censures completely worthless.

    Surely it is indisputable that Fr. Feeney desired and longed to be united to the Church, even after the sham excommunication. "The Letter" is not worth the paper it's printed upon - yet most people, even people who should know better like the hierarchy and nearly all priests for over the last 70 years are totally blind to it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #249 on: February 11, 2020, 10:03:54 AM »
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  • It doesn't always work, but I try to deal with them with this attitude also, that they are sincere but only mistaken....and will not be convinced that they are mistaken.

    The thing that gets me is that for those who've read "The Letter" and believe what it says is a teaching of the Church, re: “... Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing". If in fact it really was a teaching of the Church, then it makes the whole idea of excommunications and even lesser censures completely worthless.

    Surely it is indisputable that Fr. Feeney desired and longed to be united to the Church, even after the sham excommunication. "The Letter" is not worth the paper it's printed upon - yet most people, even people who should know better like the hierarchy and nearly all priests for over the last 70 years are totally blind to it.
    Well sometimes people may have a surface level desire to do the right thing, but really deep down they are only looking out for themselves.  God can judge in the end.  You don't believe an excommunication is an automatic sentence to Hell either.  Joan of Arc was canonized under the pre Vatican II regime so I assume you'd consider her canonization valid, yet she died under excommunication.  And you aren't a Sede, so you'd certainly take the approach that Archbishop Lefebvre was, despite an excommunication from the Pope, not automatically damned.  I mean, you have this problem too.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but for my own part, I see no reason to assume that Feeney was damned.  Obviously only God knows for sure, but I don't see any evidence or proof that he was of bad will.  I do realize that some people only have any tolerance for their left, but none to their right, and that never made much sense to me. 


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #250 on: February 11, 2020, 10:36:23 AM »
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  • Well sometimes people may have a surface level desire to do the right thing, but really deep down they are only looking out for themselves.  God can judge in the end.  You don't believe an excommunication is an automatic sentence to Hell either.  Joan of Arc was canonized under the pre Vatican II regime so I assume you'd consider her canonization valid, yet she died under excommunication.  And you aren't a Sede, so you'd certainly take the approach that Archbishop Lefebvre was, despite an excommunication from the Pope, not automatically damned.  I mean, you have this problem too.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but for my own part, I see no reason to assume that Feeney was damned.  Obviously only God knows for sure, but I don't see any evidence or proof that he was of bad will.  I do realize that some people only have any tolerance for their left, but none to their right, and that never made much sense to me.
    In the worst case scenario, Paul VI was not a true pope and the bishops who reconciled Fr. Feeney to the Church were not Catholic bishops.  But Fr. Feeney believed them to be Catholic bishops who had jurisdiction over his case.  So in the worst case scenario this is a classic case of supplied jurisdiction.  Fr. Feeney was in fact received back into the Church even by sede standards.  The only ones who would argue with that would be those who believe that he was excommunicated for heresy (not true) and that he never retracted anything (true).


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #251 on: February 11, 2020, 10:36:38 AM »
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  • Well sometimes people may have a surface level desire to do the right thing, but really deep down they are only looking out for themselves.  God can judge in the end.  You don't believe an excommunication is an automatic sentence to Hell either.  Joan of Arc was canonized under the pre Vatican II regime so I assume you'd consider her canonization valid, yet she died under excommunication.  And you aren't a Sede, so you'd certainly take the approach that Archbishop Lefebvre was, despite an excommunication from the Pope, not automatically damned.  I mean, you have this problem too.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but for my own part, I see no reason to assume that Feeney was damned.  Obviously only God knows for sure, but I don't see any evidence or proof that he was of bad will.  I do realize that some people only have any tolerance for their left, but none to their right, and that never made much sense to me.
    The thing is, people, including trad priests, quote that letter as proof that Fr. Feeney was an excommunicated heretic as they  point to that letter to show "how the Church understands the dogma, Outside the Church there is no salvation", namely, that salvation for those outside the Church is assured via a desire and longing to be within the Church while one is outside the Church. To them, *this* is the dogma.

    So Fr. Feeney gets excommunicated, or Biden or Peℓσѕι or whomever, meanwhile they all still desire and long to be Catholic - just ask any of them and they will assure you of this. What good came from them being excommunicated when the whole time they desire to remain within the Church? IOW, per how "the Church understands the dogma," their desire and longing renders any excommunication, instantly and automatically invalid, per what they wrongfully promote as the Church's own teaching.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #252 on: February 12, 2020, 12:14:21 AM »
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  • Xavier,

    Thanks for providing the quotes, particularly for the Sylvius quote in a prior post.

    Fr. Hunter writes:

    I believe that view is defensible (though "now held by no one") and supported by Scripture: the most obvious example is Our Lord saying father Abraham, the father of those who believe, saw His day and was glad (John 8:56), and I believe almost every prophet and OT saint who wrote Scripture (e.g., Moses, David, Isaiah, Daniel, etc.) referred to Christ in their writings, so arguably had some explicit knowledge of Him, though God kept it under wraps from general consumption until the "fullness of time."

    So I'm curious: are you aware of any Magisterial statements indicating that explicit belief in Christ was not required at some time prior to the explicit promulgation of the gospel by the apostles?

    Thanks,

    DR

    Hi Decem. Thanks for your question. Yes, there are actually 3 opinions, not just 2. And these are mentioned by Cardinal De Lugo in, On the Virtue of Divine Faith, as follows. (1) Explicit Faith is required for final salvation (final perseverance), but not for First Justification (Act of Contrition). (2) Explicit faith is required both for the receiving of the Grace of Justification, and for the receiving of the Grace of Final Perseverance. (3) Explicit faith is not required either for the reception of the Grace of Justification, nor for Final Perseverance and Full Salvation, option 3. The view you are talking about, "now held by no one", would be closest to (2) above.

    Interestingly, Cardinal John De Lugo enlists Dominigo Banez as supporting (1). Fr. Banez was confessor to St. Theresa, a proponent of Thomism who said, and his peers regarded, as never having wavered from St. Thomas; and Fr. Banez also was the one who asked the Holy Office to investigate Molinism. After the review passed, the Holy See, in consultation with St. Francis De Sales and others, decided both would be allowed till the question was studied further. After a careful study, I think it is clear St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, with Fr. Banez, held to (1), as do I.

    Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, a Thomistic Theologian, teaches: "First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution ... Further, among non-Christians (Jews, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jews and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of primitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even to pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God. These, as Pius IX says, 15 can arrive at salvation. God never commands the impossible. To him who does what is in his power God does not refuse grace. 17"

    Elsewhere, Father comments on a passage in the Summa already cited, where St. Thomas appears to teach every child coming to the Age of Reason is given Sufficient Grace to make an Act of Contrition at the time: ". When man begins to have the use of reason, he is not entirely excused from the guilt of venial or mortal sin. Now the first thing that occurs to a man to think about then, is to deliberate about himself. And if he then direct himself to the due end, he will, by means of grace, receive the remission of original sin: whereas if he does not then direct himself to the due end, as far as he is capable of discretion at that particular age, he will sin mortally, through not doing that which is in his power to do.168" This is also cited here: https://www.olrl.org/misc/Feeneyism.pdf

    These are Fr. G-L's words on the subject: "A difficult problem: On the justification of a pagan child who, when he arrives at the full use of reason, does what lies in his power, with the help of actual grace, to love God above all things. St. Thomas writes, Ia Hae, q. 89, a. 6: "When a child begins to have the use of reason, he should order his acts toward a proper end, to the extent that he is capable of discretion at that age." And again in the answer to the third objection: "The end is first in the intention. Hence this is the time when the child is obliged by the affirmative command : 'Turn ye to Me ... .' But if the child does this, he obtains the remission of original sin." It is an excellent form of baptism of desire. St. Thomas and Thomists reconcile this doctrine with the legitimate interpretation of the axiom : "To one who does what in him lies (with the help of actual grace), God does not deny habitual grace," and in the present case God does not deny what is necessary for justification, that is, the supernatural presentation of the truths of faith which are necessary by a necessity of means, at least that God "is, and is a rewarder" in the order of grace. However, since this thesis is extremely difficult and very complex, demanding the refutation of numerous objections, it will be well to offer here a recapitulation of its proof while at the same time solving the principal difficulties. (Cf. especially on this subject John of St. Thomas, De praedestinatione, disp. 10, a. 3, nos. 40-41, and the thesis of Father Paul Angelo, O.P., La possibtlita di salute nd primo atto morale per il fan ciullo mfedele, Rome, the Angelicuм, 1946.)"

    Father's also written, “Second part of the third opinion. John of St. Thomas is aligned with us in supporting the following proposition as probable. The medial necessity we have analyzed as binding per se may not always be verified. It is probable that exception may occur in territories where the Gospel has not been sufficiently preached. This, however, is per accidens. It’s ‘an exception that proves the rule.’ For this reason the rule is couched in a manner that provides for it, through the modifying phrase: ‘After the sufficient promulgation of the Gospel.’ …An infidel swelling among Mohammedans, for instance, and habitually doing what his conscience judges to be right, may have no better help than an interior inspiration to keep good. He may have no knowledge whatever of revelation strictly so called, nor of an immediate intervention bordering on the miraculous. He simply follows along that traces of a lost revelation that still survive, and trusts in a God ‘who is, and who rewards.’ Implicitly the infidel would be making room for faith in Christ. …We may join with the Salmanticenses (De Fide, n. 79) and Suarez in maintaining that ‘it is possible for a catechumen to have had nothing proposed to him for belief but God, the supernatural author and end of man. No explicit knowledge of Christ the Lord has reached his ears. Nevertheless, the catechumen conceives a definite faith in God as his supernatural author and supernatural end, not believing explicitly in Christ of whom he has never heard. For the fact that his new faith is firm in God as supernatural beginning and end, he is capable of loving God through charity, and therefore may be justified. Therefore, under the New Law, it is only per accidens, that is, a pure contingency, that an individual adult may attain to justification without having explicit faith in Christ.’” We've seen St. Thomas teach later enlightenment also.

    So, my view is (1). As for a Magisterial text, is the Council of Orange sufficient? It speaks of Cornelius having not merely a natural belief, but a Gift of God's Grace, on account of which the Angel of the Lord was sent to him: "of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness." https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/orange.txt We've seen St. Thomas say earlier that Cornelius had implicit faith.

    In Jesus and Mary,
    Xavier.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #253 on: February 12, 2020, 04:33:46 AM »
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  • Quote
    "Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecciesiam, etc., and ends by denying it - while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so". - Who Shall Ascend?
    A perfect example of this truism is demonstrated below. What he says about the infants is true as he begins by affirming the dogma, from then on he denies it.

    Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, a Thomistic Theologian, teaches: "First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution ... Further, among non-Christians (Jews, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jews and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of primitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even to pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God. These, as Pius IX says, 15 can arrive at salvation. God never commands the impossible. To him who does what is in his power God does not refuse grace. 17"
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #254 on: February 12, 2020, 06:51:19 AM »
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  • When you say that Jews, Mohammedans, Protestants, and schismatics CAN be saved ... as de Lugo did, as La Grange did, you are denying WORD FOR WORD the dogmatic definition of the Council of Florence.  This is heretical.  And, moreover, if you claim that these can be saved, since there's no salvation outside the Church, you must assert that these Protestants, schismatics, Jews, Mohammedans, and Protestants are INSIDE the Church.  Therefore, you are a schismatic for rejecting Vatican II (although I know that XavierSem does not reject Vatican II, so he's schismatic for adhering to the SSPX when he should be in a motu group).  It's really that simple, folks.  If you believe that all these non-Catholics can be saved and therefore can be in the Church, you need to hang up you schismatic Traditional Catholicism and return at once to the Conciliar Church.