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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15463 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2020, 02:47:28 PM »
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  • St. Thomas, Summa Theologica:  “After grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.”[iv][259]

     
    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica:  
    “And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.[ii][v][260]




    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #166 on: February 07, 2020, 02:57:45 PM »
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  • There is no contradiction. By an Act of Contrition, a person may obtain justification and enter the State of Grace, as St. Alphonsus clearly says, and therefore enter the Church. But if he perseveres in the state of Grace, He will be enlightened by God in due time, before he receives the grace of final perseverance, at least in the hour of death, about Our Lord Jesus Christ, and will therefore die with explicit faith in Him and be saved as as Christian; of which we have examples, such as Fr. Hermann Cohen's mother. Thus, the two apparent discrepancies are reconciled perfectly, and St. Alphonsus doesn't contradict yourself. Does that answer your question on St. Alphonsus, Ladislaus. As to your other question, was there no supernatural faith in the Old Testament? Then all of them are lost, and there is no difference between the just and the unjust. No, there was both supernatural faith and supernatural contrition, because there was belief in all that God had revealed, and desire to do all that He wills, which is contained in basic Acts of Faith and Contrition in God. It is true that after Christ perhaps released some drops of Blood of His Completed Sacrifice on them, only then they went to the Beatific Vision. Some early Church texts I researched recently even suggest He Baptized them, Lad, but it is clear they were just.

    And you too, Last Tradhican, or are you just interested in polemics against me? Do you know St. Thomas and Thomistic Theologians like Fr. Garrigou Lagrange teach that every child who comes to the Age of Reason is given the opportunity to Receive the Remission of Original Sin by a Loving God, by making an Act of Contrition to Him? No, obviously, you don't know it, for otherwise you would not err so gravely. The matter is a little complicated, more than people think, because there is a distinction between the First Grace of Justification and the Final Grace of Perseverance. If you note carefully, St. Alphonsus says clearly that the Act of Love of God is sufficient for Justification. That statement is intentional. Similarly, St. Thomas holds that such a person, even who received the Grace of Contrition from God shortly after the age of reason, provided he persevered and continued to pray for the Grace of Perseverance, would be enlightened, either by an Angel, or by a missionary teaching him the Catholic Faith, or at least by an interior illumination of Christ.

    In Cornelius, we have an example of a virtuous pagan, who received the Grace of Justification before Baptism, then received the Catholic Faith, and then received Baptism also. I hold, with St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, that one must be a Christian with explicit faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ at the hour of death in order to be saved. I'm also open to what seems to have been the final view of St. Augustine, and like St. Benedict's Centre, which is in full communion with the Church, most certainly believe in Baptism of Desire for Justification, but am open to the idea that God will see to it that every person dying in the state of Grace will also receive Water Baptism, as indeed Fr. Feeney was reported to have changed his opinion to later on in life, when he was reconciled to the Church.

    I do not believe anyone dying in the state of Grace can fail to go to Heaven ultimately. That seems to be heresy to me, respectfully. And SBC seems to agree now based on what they say below, read carefully, especially the last paragraph:

    "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Go Ye, Preach the Gospel to Every Creature, and Baptize[/color]

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]I wish to preface the following with an affirmation of the extreme importance of this issue in that the conversion of non-Christians to the Catholic Faith, in our day, is no longer considered a mission necessary for their salvation. The mandate of our Savior to “Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned” (Mark 16:15-16), has been supplanted by a new gospel of salvation by sincerity through invincible ignorance. It is my intention to restore at least an appreciation for the zeal of the holy missionaries that went forth to convert the nations to Christ and to baptize the pagans and infidels who accepted the good news that is the gospel. These missionaries, whose exemplar since the sixteenth century is Saint Francis Xavier, were not distracted by any speculation about a baptism of desire. Xavier baptized several hundred thousand pagans with his own hand. Biographers write that there were so many catechumens waiting to be baptized that assistants had to help him to lift his arm to perform the rite. Saint Francis Xavier never wrote a word about baptism of desire. Rather, he wrote these words from the Far East hoping to reach students aspiring for degrees: “How I would like to go to the universities of Paris and the Sorbonne and address many men who are richer in learning than in zeal, to let them know the great number of souls who, because of their neglect, are deprived of grace and are apt to go to hell. There are millions of nonbelievers who would become Christian if there were missionaries.” Was this missioner, considered the greatest after Saint Paul, misinformed? ...[/color]

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]“Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner [through baptism or confession] — whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost — are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: ‘If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting.’ ” (my italics)[/color]

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16.[/color]


    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #167 on: February 07, 2020, 03:21:00 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus himself held that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation.  He entertained the theory of the implicit faith crowd by accepting the following distinction as excusing them from obvious heresy:

    Quote
    (Theologia Moralis, Lib.III, Cap 1, Q. 2)  "[Implicit Faithers] respond that even though all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers’ testimonies oppose this opinion, their opinion is more easily explained by necessity of precept, or because ordinarily almost none are saved without explicit faith in the mysteries, because after the promulgation of the gospel almost no one labors out of invincible ignorance."

    First of all, St. Alphonsus admits that "all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers' testimonies oppose this opinion", but lets them slither away from heresy by claiming that this was merely necessary by necessity of precept.  [Remember for later that something that all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers' testimonies oppose must be considered heretical based on Vatican I's late definition regarding the infallibility of the OUM.]

    Well, evidently St. Alphonsus was not privy the the 1703 decision of the Holy Office (some 40 years before the Theologian Moralis):

    Quote
    "Question. Whether it is possible for a crude and uneducated adult, as it might be with a barbarian, to be baptized, if there were given to him only an understanding of God and some of His attributes, especially His justice in rewarding and punishing according to this remark of the Apostle: "He that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder" (Heb. 11:16), from which it is to be inferred that a barbarian adult in a certain case of urgent necessity, can be baptized even though he does not explicitly believe in Jesus Christ.

    Response. A missionary should not baptize one who does not explicitly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but is bound to instruct him about all those matters which are necessary, by a necessity of means, in accordance with the capacity of the one to be baptized" (Denz. 2380).

    So, here the Holy Office unequivocally condemns the out used by the implicit faith heretics by declaring explicit belief in Jesus Christ to be "necessary by a necessity of means" ... which is the direct opposite of necessary by necessity of precept (the dodge attempted by the implicit faith heretics).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #168 on: February 07, 2020, 03:27:51 PM »
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  • There is no contradiction. By an Act of Contrition, a person may obtain justification and enter the State of Grace, as St. Alphonsus clearly says, and therefore enter the Church. But if he perseveres in the state of Grace, He will be enlightened by God in due time, before he receives the grace of final perseverance, at least in the hour of death, about Our Lord Jesus Christ, and will therefore die with explicit faith in Him and be saved as as Christian; of which we have examples, such as Fr. Hermann Cohen's mother. Thus, the two apparent discrepancies are reconciled perfectly, and St. Alphonsus doesn't contradict yourself. Does that answer your question on St. Alphonsus, Ladislaus.

    Then you agree with St. Alphonsus that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for justification and salvation?

    It is simply not true that an "infidel" can be saved by perfect love of God.  Perfect love of God is not possible for an infidel, since it is not possible without supernatural faith.  Not unless St. Alphonsus is using the term extremely loosely ... as if referring to merely an "unbaptized person with supernatural faith", but that's absurd given that the term infidel literally means someone without faith.  At best this is an incredibly sloppy use of terms from a theologian.  I can only hope that this was mistranslated by whoever produced this quotation in English.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #169 on: February 07, 2020, 03:45:38 PM »
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  • As to your other question, was there no supernatural faith in the Old Testament? Then all of them are lost, and there is no difference between the just and the unjust.

    No, the OT just were not lost.  Nor, however, were they saved ... right away.  They were in Limbo until such as time as they themselves became enlightened regarding the Holy Trinity and the Lord Jesus Christ.  So it is clear that none of these entered heaven (were saved) without explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.  

    Some of the Church Fathers even held that these OT just were raised from the dead temporarily and baptized according to this ...

    St. Mathew 27: 52-53
    Quote
    And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many. 

    Indeed, why were these OT just ("saints") raised back to life ... just to create a spectacle?

    All the Church Fathers agreed that the economy of salvation shifted after the Resurrection of Our Lord, so it is not possible to draw logical inferences from the OT just to the new economy of salvation.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #170 on: February 07, 2020, 03:46:31 PM »
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  • That's a very truncated excerpt from St. Alphonsus Maria's Theologia Moralis. Here is the same quotation in its broader context. It should answer the question. Let me know if it doesn't.

    Alphonsus de Liguori, Theologia Moralis, Tome 2, Book 3, Chapter 1, Question 2, pp. 104-106:21 “2. Is it required by a necessity of means or of precept to believe explicitly in the mysteries of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation after the promulgation of the gospel? The first opinion and more common and held as more probable teaches belief is by necessity of means; Sanch. in Dec. lib. 2. c. 2. n. 8. Valent. 2. 2. d. 1. qu. 2. p. 4. Molina 1. part. qu. 1. a. 1 d. 2. Cont. Tourn. de praeceptis Decal. cap. 1. art. 1. §. 2. concl. 1. Juven. t. 6. diss. 4. a. 3. Antoine de virt. theol. cap. 1. qu. 2. Wigandt tr. 7. ex. 2. de fide n. 22. Concina t. 1. diss. 1. de fide cap. 8. n. 7. cuм Ledesma, Serra, Prado, etc. Also Salm. tr. 21. c. 2. punct. 2. n. 15. Cuniliat. tr. 4. de 1. Dec. praec. c. 1. §. 2. et Ronc. tr. 6. c. 2. But the last three say that in rare cases it may happen that one can be justified by implicit faith only… But the second opinion that is also sufficiently probable says by necessity of precept all must explicitly believe in the mysteries. However, for necessity of means it is sufficient to implicitly believe in the mysteries. So Dominicus Soto (in 4. sentent. t. 1. d. 5. qu. un. art. 2. concl. 2.) where he says: Even though the precept of explicit faith (in the Trinity and Incarnation) absolutely obliges the whole world, yet there also are many who are invincibly ignorant [of the mysteries] from which the obligation excuses.

    Franciscus Sylvius (t. 3. in 2. 2. qu. 2. art. 7. and 8. concl. 6.) writes: After the promulgation of the gospel explicit faith in the Incarnation is necessary for all for salvation by a necessity of precept, and also (that it is probable) a necessity of means… Card. Gotti (Theol. t. 2. tr. 9. qu. 2. d. 4. §. 1. n. 2.) says: In my judgment the opinion which denies that explicit faith in Christ and in the Trinity is so necessary that no one can be justified without it is very probable. And he adds that Scotus holds this opinion… Elbel. (t. 1. conferent. 1. n. 17.) writes today that this opinion is held by notables. DD. Castropal. part. 2. tr. 4. d. 1. p. 9. Viva in Prop. 64 damn. ab Innocent. XI. n. 10, Sporer. tr. 11. cap. 11. sect. 11. §. 4. n. 9. Laym. lib. 2. tr. 1. cap. 8. n. 5. who teach this is not less probable than the first, with Richard. Medin. Vega, Sa, and Turriano. Card. de Lugo, de fide d. 12. n. 91. calls the first speculatively probable, but defends this second view at length and in absolute terms as more probable, with Javell, Zumel, and Suarez d. 12. sect. 4. n. 10. the writings of Lugo likewise seem to be the opinion of St. Thomas 3. part. qu. 69. a. 4. ad 2. where the Doctor says: Before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit. Wherefore, argues Lugo, just as Cornelius freely obtained grace by implicit faith, so even one can obtain the same in a place where the gospel is not perfectly promulgated. He will be able in such a place to obtain the same who is invincibly ignorant of the mysteries in a place where the gospel has not been sufficiently promulgated. They say it is repugnant to the divine goodness and providence to damn invincibly ignorant adults who live uprightly in accordance with the light of nature whereas Acts 10:35 says, ‘But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh justice is acceptable to him.’ They respond that even though all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers’ testimonies oppose this opinion, their opinion is more easily explained by necessity of precept, or because ordinarily almost none are saved without explicit faith in the mysteries, because after the promulgation of the gospel almost no one labors out of invincible ignorance. Or that, says Lugo, they can be explained by implicit faith or explained by desire…”

    I agree with what St. Alphonsus Maria calls more probable. The other opinion is a tolerated one, like Molinism. Also note the distinction between justification and perseverance in grace in many of these early authorities.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #171 on: February 07, 2020, 04:20:21 PM »
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  • I do not believe anyone dying in the state of Grace can fail to go to Heaven ultimately. That seems to be heresy to me, respectfully. And SBC seems to agree now based on what they say below, read carefully, especially the last paragraph:

    No one believes that someone can die in a state of grace and not be in Heaven.  But this sounds a bit like begging the question.  You're assuming that someone in the New Testament can 1) be in a state of grace in the first place without Baptism and 2) allowed by God to die in that state without His ensuring that they receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Since you cite that passage from SBC, if you read the entire thing, you'll find that St. Augustine, considered by many to be the father of BoD, vehemently rejected BoD toward the end of his life.  Some of the strongest statements against BoD in existence (cited in that article) come from St. Augustine.  And the ONLY OTHER Father some reference as a proponent of BoD is St. Ambrose.  But his oration at the funeral of Valentinian was ambiguous at best.  Valentinian was killed by Arians for rejecting their heresy, so did St. Ambrose posit a Baptism of Blood?  Or, recall, this was before the days of Twitter and the Internet.  News of the details did not travel quickly.  Did one of his attendants perhaps baptize him as he lay dying?  All St. Ambrose said was that he received the grace that he sought ... totally open-ended, and in no way proof of his endorsement of BoD.  In fact, in his De Sacramentis, St. Ambrose taught:  " Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, wherewith he too is signed; but unless he be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive remission of sins nor gain the gift of spiritual grace."

    So here's the state of the question among the Church Fathers:

    Some believed in Baptism of Blood (including some who explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire).

    St. Augustine speculated about it in his youth (saying something along the lines of how he had gone back and forth on the question, finally deciding that "it seems to me").  This was no statement of some authoritative teaching from Tradition.  Then in his later years, he vehemently rejected it.

    Then you have the ambiguous, inconclusive oration for Valentinian.

    THAT'S IT.  You had about 5 or 6 Church Fathers EXPLICITLY REJECT Baptism of Desire.

    Even Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner had the intellectual honesty to admit this (and he would have loved to say that the contrary was true):
    Quote
    . . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.

    St. Fulgentius, a disciple of St. Augustine, also explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire.

    After him and until the time of Hugh of St. Victor (about 600 years after Fulgentius) there was hardly a peep about this subject.

    Right before the scholastic era, there was a revival of St. Augustine.  So enamored were many of St. Augustine that the Church felt the need to condemn the proposition that it was permitted to prefer an opinion of Augustine to Church teaching.

    In any case, Hugh of St. Victor argued FOR BoD, while Abelard argued AGAINST it.  Abelard, also, by the way, was the first to reject the Augustinian tradition that unbaptized infants suffered in hell, and the Church sided with him and made Limbo her own doctrine.

    To help resolve the dispute, Hugh of St. Victor wrote to St. Bernard.  St. Bernard tentatively came down in favor of BoD based on his false impression that St. Augustine held it unequivocally (vs. having rejected it at the end of his life) and also based on a tenuous understanding of St. Ambrose on Valentian.  He said he went with Augustine and Ambrose out of reverence ("whether in truth or in error").  He gave no actual theological defense of the opinion.

    From there the opinion made it into Peter Lombard's Sententiae, which was the manual that essentially kicked off the scholastic movement.  St. Thomas picked it up, and then of course it went viral due to his authority.

    At any point here, do we have ANY evidence that BoD was revealed doctrine?  We know revealed doctrine through either the unanimous consensus of the Fathers (and we see there was none about BoD as several Fathers rejected it and only a couple tentatively believed it) or else if one can demonstrate by argument that the doctrine derives implicitly and necessarily from other revealed truth.  No such demonstration has ever been made.

    This is why I refer to BoD as speculative theology.  It is not revealed truth, nor is it even definable as such.  Certainly, many Catholics held this view, but never has there been any theological proof of the position.  St. Robert Bellarmine, for instance, simply gave as his reason that the contrary (that a catechumen who died without baptism could not be saved) "seems too harsh" ... emotional theology.  St. Gregory nαzιanzen and St. Augustine both explained that BoD speculation came from people who watched some devout catechumens who appeared devout pass away without Baptism while other scoundrels who lived terrible lives snuck Baptism in on their deathbeds.  People considered this "unfair" and so speculated about a BoD.  But St. Augustine realized, as he matured, that this emotional "reasoning" was nothing but a "vortex of confusion" that needed to be rejected if one "wished to be catholic."  It opens up massive cans of worms when WE start speculating about what we believe would be fair and what would not be fair ... and trying to impose our standards on God.

    As for BoB, many Fathers accepted it, and none explicitly rejected it. But some of the earliest Fathers considered it merely an alternate mode of receiving the Sacrament itself, and not an exception, as they saw the recipient washed (in blood vs. water) and posited that the angels said the words of Baptism to supply the form ... thus making it a Sacrament.

    THIS is the status quaestionis of Baptism of Desire.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #172 on: February 07, 2020, 04:22:31 PM »
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  • Here's the state of the question on explicit and implicit faith in Christ, per 3 pre-Vatican II authorities, for our reflection. Note the careful wording in Msgr. Fenton, Fr. Mueller, St. Alphonsus etc, in order to allow for the view of justification through implicit faith, but final salvation coming only after explicit faith in Christ, which Cardinal De Lugo, whom St. Alphonsus highly respects, also defends at length. That the OT just in limbo were saved in this way is also a defensible view; through implicit faith before Christ, and arriving at explicit faith in Him after His Coming there, and thereafter immediately going to Heaven to experience the blessed vision of God face to face forevermore. Thus, it is defensible to say, persons can be justified by an act of contrition, and obtain perseverance after explicit faith.

    Fr. Sylvester Hunter, in Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (1895) writes: "112. The Catholic Doctrine.—In opposition to all 112] THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. 159 these, the doctrine of Catholic theology is that the body of public revealed doctrine has received no objective increase since the days of the Apostles. It is true, as St. Thomas remarks, (Summa Theol. 2. 2. q. I. a. 7. c.) that the whole of the Divine economy of salvation is in some sense contained in the two fundamental articles which have been revealed from the beginning, that God is, and is a rewarder of them that seek Him : the explicit belief in which truths is and always has been a necessary condition of salvation, according to the doctrine of St. Paul. (Hebrews xi. 6.) But the whole body of Christian doctrine could never have been discovered as contained in this primitive and, so to speak, elementary revelation, had not further revelations been vouchsafed ; and such revelations were given from time to time under the patriarchal dispensation, under the Mosaic Law, and during the life of Christ and His Apostles ; ...

    "Regarding the points on which explicit knowledge is required as the indispensable means of justification, this certainly extends to the belief that God exists and that He shows Himself the Rewarder of them that seek Him.  This amount of belief is declared by St. Paul to be essential, if any one will please God. (Hebrews 11:6). The Greek word Rewarder literally means the payer of wages: the seeking God is therefore the application to enter His service; and the absolute necessity of the knowledge specified will be readily understood, if anyone is to earn a reward.

    So far there is universal agreement, and in fact the necessity that we have stated is not open to doubt, for Pope Innocent XI condemned the assertion that explicit belief that God rewards is not necessary (prop. 22; Denz. 1039).  There is a controversy whether St. Paul, in the passage quoted, intended to mention all that is necessary, or whether explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is required. At one time, a few writers were found to maintain that this explicit belief not only is necessary, but always has been so: this is now held by no one but many followers of the Thomist school hold that it has been necessary since the revelation was brought by Christ, although under the Old Law it was not requisite. These found their opinion upon the language of Scripture, which frequently speaks of faith in Christ as the essential condition of salvation; and to believe in Christ means to believe that He is God and Man."

    Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR, citing St. Alphonsus and other authorities: "Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.”

    Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, writing during the reign of Pope Ven. Pius XII: "most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation"

    Edit: Ladislaus, note to you: I saw your post only after typing this. I will respond to you subsequently. God Bless.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #173 on: February 07, 2020, 04:24:23 PM »
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  • That's a very truncated excerpt from St. Alphonsus Maria's Theologia Moralis. Here is the same quotation in its broader context. It should answer the question. Let me know if it doesn't.

    ...

    I agree with what St. Alphonsus Maria calls more probable. The other opinion is a tolerated one, like Molinism. Also note the distinction between justification and perseverance in grace in many of these early authorities.

    Did you not read the 1703 Holy Office declaration that explicit faith in Christ was necessary by necessity of means (rather than necessity of precept)?  St. Alphonsus must not have.  So, given the Holy Office declaration, that opinion is NOT "probable".

    Vatican I also clearly taught that it is a requirement for supernatural faith to believe something which can ONLY be known by Revelation.  Elsewhere, Vatican I taught that the existence of God and His attributes (justice, for example) CAN in fact be known with certainty by natural reason alone.

    Between these two, despite the opinion of St. Alphonsus, the case is CLOSED against implicit faith.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #174 on: February 07, 2020, 04:25:58 PM »
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  • Here's the state of the question on explicit and implicit faith in Christ, per 3 pre-Vatican II authorities,  ...

    And these are DEAD WRONG.  For the third time, now, I refer you to the 1703 Holy Office decision and the teaching of Vatican I.

    EDIT:  I see now that you say you'll respond to that.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #175 on: February 07, 2020, 04:32:48 PM »
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  • Regardless of the theological note of the opinion as possible/probable, one of these opinions is wrong.

    If the "less probable" one is wrong, then it's also heretical, since St. Alphonsus admitted that all of the Scriptures and Church Fathers taught the necessity of explicit faith.  If the "distinction" of necessity of precept is wrong/mistaken, then this weight of authority renders explicit faith being necessary by necessity of means to be dogma, and the contrary heresy.

    Some day the FULL weight of Church authority will definitively address this issue ... just as the Church has taught the necessity of Baptism of by necessity of means.

    But Church authority is AGAINST implicit faith theory ...

    1) the vast majority of Catholic theologians reject it
    2) Holy Office rejected it (1703)
    3) Vatican I taught against it in principle

    So one who adopts the "improbable" opinion is flirting with heresy.

    Finally, we see the pernicious fruits of this position, and by its fruits we know it.  It has led to an erosion of belief in EENS dogma, which in turn has led to Vatican II and the veritable apostasy that came in its wake.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #176 on: February 07, 2020, 08:48:26 PM »
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  • You have misunderstood the matter. One question is which is true, another what is the status of each. I'm a Thomist on both this issue and Predestination and Grace; but I respect that both Molinism and implicit faith are permitted by the Magisterium. They are not unaware of the controversy and have chosen to permit it all these many centuries. But the first principle for a real Thomist is respect for the Magisterium of the Church. When the Dominicans, who were Thomists, were told not to attack the Jesuits, who were Molinists, they unhesitatingly obeyed. Because that's what Thomists do and that's what St. Thomas taught us. You it seems would have attacked the Magisterium for doing so, and maybe become a sede-doubtist at the time. St. Thomas "I receive Thee, Redeeming Prince of my soul (Viaticuм on his deathbed), for Whose Love I have watched, studied and labored. Thee have I preached, Thee have I taught, ne'er have I said aught against Thee ... I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in Whose obedience I pass from this life". That is St. Thomas; Model Roman Catholic Theologian. What one doesn't observe in some who profess agreement with the Dimonds.

    Also, clarify once and for all whether you're a Dimondite or a Feeneyite, which you keep wavering on. If you're a Feeneyite, you shouldn't even be attacking the Doctrine of Baptism of Desire. Even Fr. Feeney at times admitted an Act of Love or Contrition could justify, but it was very difficult, which is true; the Doctrine of Baptism of Desire states an Act of Love or Contrition justifies; it doesn't preclude later enlightenment about Christ as I said. So answer this question, if without knowledge of the Trinity, no one can be justified, how did the Just go to Limbo, and the wicked to hellfire? According to you, all must have gone to hellfire, since none could be justified.

    We hold they were Justified by Perfect Contrition, which therefore is proved to have been possible to them; and therefore it is proven supernatural faith and contrition can exist in one who believes in and loves God with all his strength; this justice as I said, doesn't preclude enlightenment later on before perseverance is conferred. Thus, those justified by implicit faith, were saved after explicit faith.

    "III. IS IT DIFFICULT TO MAKE AN ACT OF PERFECT CONTRITION? No doubt, it is more difficult to make an act of Perfect Contrition than an Imperfect one, which suffices when we go to Confession. But still, there is no one who, if he sincerely wishes it, cannot, with the grace of God, make an act of Perfect Contrition. Sorrow is in the will, not in the senses or feelings. All that is needed is that we repent because we love God above everything else; that is all. True it is that Perfect Contrition has its degrees, but it is none the less perfect because it does not reach the intensity and sublimity of the sorrow of St. Peter, of St. Mary Magdalene, or of St. Aloysius. Such a degree is very desirable, but is by no means necessary. A lesser degree, but, provided it proceeds from the love of God, and not through fear of His punishments, is quite sufficient. And it is very consoling to remember that for the 4000 years before the coming of Christ the only means sinners had of obtaining pardon was this same Perfect Contrition. There was no Sacrament of Penance in those days. Even today for thousands-aye, for millions-of pagans, of non-Catholics, and of Catholics, too, who have no time to call a priest to their bedside, the only means of pardon and [in time] salvation is an act of Perfect Contrition." https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-110.shtml This is why Bp. Fellay says a Hindu in Tibet can be in the State of Grace, which you appear not to believe possible; but Bp. Fellay doesn't say that Hindu will be saved as he is, and doesn't preclude that that Hindu will be enlightened before death and die as a Christian having received perseverance in Grace after it; as Bp. Fellay has explained elsewhere. Even Rome knows the controversy remains open, and both Bp. Fellay and even some recent Magisterial texts have favored explicit faith for final salvation; while leaving justification through implicit faith open as a possibility.

    You also seem not to have realized the import of one of the citations you provided: "Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before [Christian?]Faith." Read it again: what does it say? St. Gregory said at his father's funeral oration, who died a Christian, that his manner of living while yet a non-Christian, already made him one of them. Something, God later confirmed by making him a Christian. That's what this quote of Fr. Rahner that you gave is talking about. It's also very well known to patristic scholars that some of the Fathers were universalists; they believed everyone would be sanctified and saved in the end, though sometimes after terrible sufferings before that. So, the case you want to make from the Fathers is weak. No one denies St. Mary Magdalene, St. Peter the Apostle, King David etc obtained Grace and Justification through Contrition.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #177 on: February 07, 2020, 09:04:33 PM »
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  • Regardless of the theological note of the opinion as possible/probable, one of these opinions is wrong.

    If the "less probable" one is wrong, then it's also heretical, since St. Alphonsus admitted that all of the Scriptures and Church Fathers taught the necessity of explicit faith.  If the "distinction" of necessity of precept is wrong/mistaken, then this weight of authority renders explicit faith being necessary by necessity of means to be dogma, and the contrary heresy.

    Some day the FULL weight of Church authority will definitively address this issue ... just as the Church has taught the necessity of Baptism of by necessity of means.

    But Church authority is AGAINST implicit faith theory ...

    1) the vast majority of Catholic theologians reject it
    2) Holy Office rejected it (1703)
    3) Vatican I taught against it in principle

    So one who adopts the "improbable" opinion is flirting with heresy.

    Finally, we see the pernicious fruits of this position, and by its fruits we know it.  It has led to an erosion of belief in EENS dogma, which in turn has led to Vatican II and the veritable apostasy that came in its wake.
    1) should be that no Father, Doctor or saint ever supported the idea.

    RE: Finally, we see the pernicious fruits of this position, and by its fruits we know it.  It has led to an erosion of belief in EENS dogma, which in turn has led to Vatican II and the veritable apostasy that came in its wake.

    XavierSem is a kid who does not see anything wrong with Vatican II nor any apostacy, in fact he wants to join the Conciliar Church. It makes sense that he does not want to interpret the dogmas on EENS as they are written. By their fruits you shall know them. No surprise there. 

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #178 on: February 08, 2020, 07:27:07 AM »
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  • You have misunderstood the matter. One question is which is true, another what is the status of each. I'm a Thomist on both this issue and Predestination and Grace; but I respect that both Molinism and implicit faith are permitted by the Magisterium.

    Molinism has been permitted by the Magisterium.  Implicit faith has been REJECTED.  It was rejected in 1703 by the Holy Office and rejected in principle by Vatican I.  It is YOU who thoroughly misunderstand this matter.  You continue to IGNORE both the Holy Office and Vatican I.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #179 on: February 08, 2020, 07:33:21 AM »
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  • Also, clarify once and for all whether you're a Dimondite or a Feeneyite, which you keep wavering on. If you're a Feeneyite, you shouldn't even be attacking the Doctrine of Baptism of Desire.

    Now you're just being dishonest ... to cover your tracks.  I have never once identified myself as a Dimondite.  I have "clarified" this many times.  I have REPEATEDLY stated that there are very few actual Dimondites on this forum.  And I have REPEATEDLY stated, as has LastTrad, that neither of us care about Baptism of Desire per se, when understood in the Thomistic sense, applied to catechumens or those with explicit faith in the central mysteries of the Faith.  I just finished praising Matto, who believes in BoD, for his position on EENS.  I repeatedly praised Arvinger, who also believed in Baptism of Desire, for his vigorous defense of EENS and of Tridentine ecclesiology which teaches that the Church is a visible society with identifiable members known in the external forum.