Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15233 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Praeter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Reputation: +122/-77
  • Gender: Male
Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2020, 01:05:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Doctrinal Council > papal opinions > fallible catechisms > theological manuals.  Truth doesn't change.

    Pax, do you believe your private interpretation of Trent is infallible? If so, when did you receive the charism and how can the rest of us get it?  

    If not, why would you favor your own private interpretation over that of the Popes, the "fallible catechisms" that the Church has approved, and the theological manuals that the Church not only approved, but used to train priests in seminary before Vatican II?  

    Do you have a Ph.D in theology?  Do you have any formal theological training? I can guarantee that the answer to both questions is a resounding no.  In that case, how can you possibly reject what the pre-Vatican II popes, catechisms and theologians all taught?

    It is amazing to watch prideful laymen fall into the identical error of the Protestant heretics.  But it shouldn't be a surprise, since human nature doesn't change.

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12107
    • Reputation: +7628/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #151 on: February 07, 2020, 01:14:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Praeter,
    I've already said that I don't have a problem with the (imo, liberal) interpretation of the Piux X catechism...even though it's not infallible.  What I have a problem with, and what is heretical, is the APPLICATION of BOD to those who do not have a desire for the sacrament.  Trent SPECIFICALLY outlines who BOD applies to; most all theologians since the 1800s have slowly expanded Trent's guidelines, as does XavierSem when he says that a "sincere" Hindu can receive BOD even when he has no idea what baptism or the Church is.
    .
    Do you see what I'm saying?


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #152 on: February 07, 2020, 01:17:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This conversation is a wast of time.  What is evident is that the baptism of desire deniers are no different than Protestants. They rely on their private judgment and reject what every Catholic (with the exception of the few Feeneyites) believed before before Vatican II.
    Dear Praeter,

    I don't have the time to read through this thread, just tell me one thing, is the discussion about baptism of desire of the catechumen, the catechumen who is on the way to be baptized and gets run over by a truck? Are you one of those few honest BODers that limits his belief to BOD of the catechumen? Or are you just one of the legion of sophists false BODers that believes Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed people in any religion (that have no explicit desire to be Catholic, or baptized, or belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity)?

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3852/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #153 on: February 07, 2020, 01:30:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't understand why people bring up the Baltimore Catechism, because most people who believe in BOD do not believe in it the way it is taught in the Baltimore Catechism. (at least the version I have)

    Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
    A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

    ar·dent means enthusiastic or passionate.

    That makes sense to me and that is what I believe. If someone desires Baptism with all their heart (and ALSO wish to do all that God has ordained for salvation such as avoiding sin) and they die before they are Baptized but wish they were, then they can be Baptized by God himself or by the angels. But that is not what most people believe. They believe people in any religion who have no desire at all (or wish), let alone an "ardent" one to be Baptized can have BOD. So they reject the Baltimore Catechism just as the Feeneyites do. And "ardent" is not the same as "implicit". So I think people should stop using the Baltimore Catechism as their BOD proving source since they also reject its teaching.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14718
    • Reputation: +6061/-904
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #154 on: February 07, 2020, 01:50:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The canon you quoted said baptism, not the sacrament of baptism.
    The canon is in the Seventh Session, titled: "Decree on The Sacraments", therefore, the canon is strictly about the sacrament of baptism, not the rubrics surrounding the ceremony or anything else.


    Quote
    In the prior section on "The Sacraments in General," it qualifies the statement, by added “or the desire thereof”.  Here it the canon:

     
    The Sacraments in General: CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
     
    If you interpret that canon as meaning a person can be justified and saved by baptism of desire, your private interpretation will be in agreement with all the catechisms and theologians who addressed it after the council.  If you privately interpret the canon differently, you are no different than a Protestant.

    May we do a careful, comprehensive reading of this canon by splitting it into two parts?

    First, note that like Trent's first quote above, the subject matter of the canon is about the sacrament(s), not a desire for them:

    PART 1) CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;...[let him be anathema].

    This first half of the canon alone should be all anyone needs to see that a BOD, which is not a sacrament, contradicts Trent.
    Note that Part 1 condemns those who saith that the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation. This means we must believe that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation. Certainly you cannot disagree here.

    I assume you will agree that a BOD is not a sacrament, yet by saying a BOD is salvific, you are saying a) the sacrament is not necessary for salvation and b) by saying a BOD is salvific, what you are saying is that the sacrament is superfluous. Trent condemns both, a and b.



    PART 2) ...and [If any one saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

    Part 2 says that if you saith that without the sacrament, or without the desire thereof, that men do in fact obtain justification (not salvation), through faith alone, then you are anathema.

    What Trent is talking about is the sacraments.
    Trent says the sacraments are necessary unto salvation. (part 1)
    Trent says without them or the desire for them, men do not obtain justification.

    Even receiving the sacrament is no guarantee of salvation, it only guarantees justification whilst we live, at least until that justification is lost through mortal sin. 

    To summarize, Part 1 is talking about salvation and tells us that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation. Before we can receive any of the other sacraments, we must receive the sacrament of baptism, making that sacrament the most necessary of all the sacraments.

    Part 2 is talking about justification and tells us we cannot be justified without the sacraments or the desire thereof. Trent is also saying that through faith alone, no one is justified, which, without the sacrament, is what "the desire thereof" is.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46575
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #155 on: February 07, 2020, 01:53:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • That makes sense to me and that is what I believe. If someone desires Baptism with all their heart (and ALSO wish to do all that God has ordained for salvation such as avoiding sin) and they die before they are Baptized but wish they were, then they can be Baptized by God himself or by the angels. But that is not what most people believe. They believe people in any religion who have no desire at all (or wish), let alone an "ardent" one to be Baptized can have BOD. So they reject the Baltimore Catechism just as the Feeneyites do. And "ardent" is not the same as "implicit". So I think people should stop using the Baltimore Catechism as their BOD proving source since they also reject its teaching.


    THIS ^^^ ... there's actually no desire at all in their notion of BoD.

    I have zero objection to this belief in BoD enunciated by Matto above.  There's nothing inherently inimical to Catholic EENS dogma nor to Catholic ecclesiology here.  I won't spend 5 minutes arguing with you over what then becomes a mere academic disagreement on a point of speculative theology.  Arvinger was another one that I had no problem with.  It's not worth my time.

    What's at issue is those who use a false distorted notion of BoD to undermine EENS dogma, where the Church EXPLICITLY teaches that infidels, heretics, and schismatics cannot be saved.  Now, it's disputed whether all catechumens necessarily qualify as infidels.  In one sense they are, but in another not.  That is the crux of the debate over whether catechumens can be saved via BoD, and it's speculative.  It's also speculative because even if you believe that it's hypothetically possible, there's no proof that anyone has ever actually been saved in this manner.  My firm conviction is that God would not allow any of His elect catechumens to die before receiving Baptism.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46575
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #156 on: February 07, 2020, 01:56:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Before we waste any more of our time, Praeter and XavierSem need to answer this question:

    Can infidels (e.g. Jews or Muslims) or heretics (e.g. Protestants) or schismatics (e.g. Orthodox) be saved?

    ANSWER WITH A SIMPLE YES OR NO.  No prevarication or equivocation.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1894/-1751
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #157 on: February 07, 2020, 02:05:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Please respond in your own words, not some lengthy quotes, as you are the self-proclaimed expert here, and I am a lowly heretic.
    Pax, I didn't mean to suggest that. And I thought I was helping by providing reading material from that much-loved Book on Perfect Contrition, which contains much edifying material, and which many Saints have said they would love to preach Sermons on, for it is one of the Greatest and Highest Commandments of God, which Our Lord calls the First and Greatest of all Commandments, to love God with all our hearts, with all our minds, with all our strength; for the Grace of God is never lacking to those who do.

    Now, I don't think you're "a lowly heretic". But here's a simple answer, in my own words first, and then proved by the authority of a Doctor, and then from the Magisterium, a Holy Office Letter Msgr. Fenton commented on positively. When someone universally wishes to fulfill the will of God in every respect, as when he wishes to love God above all things and keep all His commands, implicit in that universal act of love or universal contrition, is the desire to fulfill each and every specific command of God, which therefore immeditely justifies, just as AN ACT OF CONTRITION does for us 

    St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church: "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."

    And in the Holy Office Letter: ""In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807). The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

    However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

    But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6)."


    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12107
    • Reputation: +7628/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #158 on: February 07, 2020, 02:12:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If St Alphonsus truly wrote that "as is", with no out-of-context sentences put together, then he would've had no problem with V2.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1894/-1751
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #159 on: February 07, 2020, 02:25:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If St Alphonsus truly wrote that "as is", with no out-of-context sentences put together, then he would've had no problem with V2.
    And Archbishop Lefebvre and the Baltimore Catechism have also taught this Catholic Church Doctrine most plainly. 

    Archbishop Lefebvre: "The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church."

    ·     Baltimore Catechism (19th and 20th centuries)Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.


    I think it is the misunderstanding or unawareness of this one single doctrine that more than anything else - as even Ladislaus has said is the case in the past, making a good case for it imo - keeps souls away from desiring to be good traditional Roman Catholics in full Communion with the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. I accept the Authoritative Teaching on this matter of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I can even agree with St. Benedict's Catholic Centre on it.

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
    Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity
    849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#846



    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46575
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #160 on: February 07, 2020, 02:25:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church: "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."

    ASSUMING THAT this quotation is real, not taken out of context, and not mistranslated --

    With all due respect to St. Alphonsus, this statement is on its face heretical.  Infidels cannot be saved.  Supernatural faith is an absolute requirement for justification.  Perfect supernatural love of God is not possible without supernatural faith.

    Trent taught this quite clearly:
    Quote
    the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified

    No man has ever been justified without faith.  Dogma.

    Infidel quite literally means "one without faith"

    Even Doctors of the Church are capable of pronouncing material heresy.

    Now, in his defense, he's probably using the term loosely as someone who does not believe EXPLICITLY in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.  But, in that case, he explicitly disagreed with that position in another place, since he did hold as his position that such explicit faith was in fact necessary for salvation.  So at the very least he's contradicting himself.


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #161 on: February 07, 2020, 02:32:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dear Praeter and XavierSem,

    I don't have the time to read through this thread, just tell me one thing, is the discussion about baptism of desire of the catechumen, the catechumen who is on the way to be baptized and gets run over by a truck? Are you one of those few honest BODers that limits his belief to BOD of the catechumen? Or are you just one of the legion of sophists false BODers that believes Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed people in any religion (that have no explicit desire to be Catholic, or baptized, or belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity)?

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #162 on: February 07, 2020, 02:36:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • False BOders like XavierSem only use St. Alphonsis Ligour to teach their false version of implicit desire, which he never taught. Then they throw him under the bus, to teach salvation by implicit faith:


    St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church.  How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.)


    St. Alphonsus, The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457: “Still we answer the Semipelagians, and say, that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate grace, still they are not deprived of remote grace, as a means of becoming converted.  But what is this remote grace?  St. Thomas explains it, when he says, that if anyone was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius.  Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.”


    St. Francis Xavier:
    Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

    One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

    From: Henry James Coleridge, ed., The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier, 2d Ed., 2 Vols., (London: Burns & Oates, 1890), Vol. II, pp. 331-350; reprinted in William H. McNeil and Mitsuko Iriye, eds., Modern Asia and Africa, Readings in World History Vol. 9, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1971), pp. 20-30.







    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46575
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #163 on: February 07, 2020, 02:38:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dear Praeter and XavierSem,

    I don't have the time to read through this thread, just tell me one thing, is the discussion about baptism of desire of the catechumen, the catechumen who is on the way to be baptized and gets run over by a truck? Are you one of those few honest BODers that limits his belief to BOD of the catechumen? Or are you just one of the legion of sophists false BODers that believes Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed people in any religion (that have no explicit desire to be Catholic, or baptized, or belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity)?

    I asked them this already on this thread.  That's because we all know the answer.  Their interest in BoD has nothing to do with the rare case of a departed catechumen.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46575
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #164 on: February 07, 2020, 02:41:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church.  How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.)


    St. Alphonsus, The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457: ...

    Yes, either he was contradicting himself in that prior quotation, or else it's fabricated, taken out of context, or mistranslated by some heretic with an agenda.