Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15468 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46585
  • Reputation: +27431/-5069
  • Gender: Male
Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #135 on: February 07, 2020, 09:11:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • IMPLICIT does NOT mean indirect, subtle, abstract, or hidden.  IMPLICIT means it's assumed based on actions.  (Only God knows if the desire is truly there), but you cannot have an IMPLICIT desire unless ACTIONS are taken so that an OUTSIDE party would assume such.

    Right, anything else completely destroys the definition of the Church as a visible society ... taught emphatically by Trent.  This is why St. Robert Bellarmine, writing shortly after Trent, limited BoD to catechumens.

    Even the Modernist Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner admitted this:
    Quote
    . . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.

    Most people don't know that Rahner was attacked by the even-more-heretical Modernists of his age for his "Anonymous Christianity," in that he insisted that even in this Anonymous justification, Christ had to remain some hidden, invisible instrumental cause of justification.  Now, those like Archbishop Lefebvre and others who state that people are saved BY the Church (rather than IN the Church) tragically hold this very same opinion, that the Church's role is that of mere instrumental cause acting invisibly.  This leads to an undermining of the Church as visible society, and this is in fact Vatican II ecclesiology in a nutshell.  ALL of the Vatican II errors derive from this ecclesiology.  So it's ironic that so many Traditional Catholics claim to reject Vatican II.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #136 on: February 07, 2020, 09:16:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The opinion of three popes and the universal doctor of the Church, vs. one from Fr. Feeney, ...

    Read the quote from Rahner.  Most of the Church Fathers explicitly rejected BoD.  Of those who accepted it, they considered it limited to the catechumen.  So did St. Robert Bellarmine.  That was because they considered the catechumen already an imperfect member of the Church through their profession of faith.  In other words, they had one of the criteria required for membership in the Church, though not all.

    This notion of BoD extending to those other than catechumens or those who profess the Catholic faith is nothing but Pelagian heresy.  You continue to hide behind Baptism of Desire to promote Pelagianism, whereas a PROPER understanding of BoD doesn't labor under that difficulty.

    But none of you actually care about the rare case of a catechumen who happened to drop dead the day before his Baptism was scheduled.  Your interest is in undermining EENS so that all manner of infidel, heretic, and schismatic can be saved (which is a denial of Church dogma that these CANNOT be saved).


    Offline Praeter

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 192
    • Reputation: +122/-77
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #137 on: February 07, 2020, 09:21:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • The fact that there is minor difference concerning BOD, such as whether it removes all actual sin or not, is beside the point, since they all taught BOD.

    I meant to say whether it removes all the punishment due to actual sins...

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #138 on: February 07, 2020, 09:22:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I meant to say whether it removes all the punishment due to actual sins...

    No, this is big in terms of understanding what BoD is and how it works.  Some claim that it works "quasi-" ex opere operato (whatever that means), other that it's basically Pelagianism at work.  Church has NOT defined what this means.  All you BoDers agree on is that it renders Baptism unnecessary for salvation (which is in fact heretical).

    Offline ServusChristi

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 54
    • Reputation: +28/-30
    • Gender: Male
    • Roman Catholic
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #139 on: February 07, 2020, 09:23:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Read the quote from Rahner.  Most of the Church Fathers explicitly rejected BoD.  Of those who accepted it, they considered it limited to the catechumen.  So did St. Robert Bellarmine.  That was because they considered the catechumen already an imperfect member of the Church through their profession of faith.  In other words, they had one of the criteria required for membership in the Church, though not all.

    This notion of BoD extending to those other than catechumens or those who profess the Catholic faith is nothing but Pelagian heresy.  You continue to hide behind Baptism of Desire to promote Pelagianism, whereas a PROPER understanding of BoD doesn't labor under that difficulty.

    But none of you actually care about the rare case of a catechumen who happened to drop dead the day before his Baptism was scheduled.  Your interest is in undermining EENS so that all manner of infidel, heretic, and schismatic can be saved (which is a denial of Church dogma that these CANNOT be saved).
    This is without a doubt true. Saints, doctors, and Popes only acknowledged Baptism of Blood. "Baptism of Desire" was only acknowledged in the case of a Catechumen.
    The most explicit statement I've seen on this is by St. Fulgentius who says: "Hold most firmly and never doubt that, not only adults with the use of reason but also children who either begin to live in the womb of their mothers and who die there or, already born from their mothers, pass from this world without the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, which is given in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, must be punished with the endless penalty of eternal fire. Even if they have no sin from their own actions, still, by their carnal conception and birth, they have contracted the damnation of Original Sin."
    Glory be to the Father,
    and to the Son,
    and to the Holy Spirit.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #140 on: February 07, 2020, 09:25:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Again, most of us don't care about BoD per se.  It's the BoDers who keep making it about BoD ... since they can dig up some quotes in support of BoD.

    What's the actual issue is whether anyone other than catechumens can be saved by this means.

    For that opinion there is ZERO support in Catholic doctrine.  So in that belief, it is YOU who reject Church teaching by contradicting the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church.  But you falsely try to create the impression that they agree with you on this point simply because they believe in a BoD.  It's a completely dishonest argument ... but it's all you've got.

    Offline ServusChristi

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 54
    • Reputation: +28/-30
    • Gender: Male
    • Roman Catholic
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #141 on: February 07, 2020, 09:28:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Furthermore St. Fulgentius says: "No one can, without the sacrament of Baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal." (The Rule of Faith 43).
    Glory be to the Father,
    and to the Son,
    and to the Holy Spirit.

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #142 on: February 07, 2020, 10:10:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right, anything else completely destroys the definition of the Church as a visible society ... taught emphatically by Trent.  This is why St. Robert Bellarmine, writing shortly after Trent, limited BoD to catechumens.

    Even the Modernist Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner admitted this:
    Most people don't know that Rahner was attacked by the even-more-heretical Modernists of his age for his "Anonymous Christianity," in that he insisted that even in this Anonymous justification, Christ had to remain some hidden, invisible instrumental cause of justification.  Now, those like Archbishop Lefebvre and others who state that people are saved BY the Church (rather than IN the Church) tragically hold this very same opinion, that the Church's role is that of mere instrumental cause acting invisibly.  This leads to an undermining of the Church as visible society, and this is in fact Vatican II ecclesiology in a nutshell.  ALL of the Vatican II errors derive from this ecclesiology.  So it's ironic that so many Traditional Catholics claim to reject Vatican II.
    Where does that Karl Rahner quote come from?


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12108
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #143 on: February 07, 2020, 10:15:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The opinion of three popes and the universal doctor of the Church, vs. one from Fr. Feeney
    Fr Feeney is not the only one who argued against BOD.  St Gregory was already posted on this thread.
    .
    Quote
    You are departing from what everyone prior to Vatican II taught simply because the teaching you don't like was never infallibly defined. 
    I'm making the point that Trent defined a specific area, with strict requirements, where BOD is ok.  All previous opinions to Trent are ignored, unless they line up with Trent.  All opinions after Trent are anathema, if they are liberalized.  Once a council has spoken, we must abide by what it says.  Councils > papal opinions.  Councils > Saints opinions.
    .
    You can't mix and match opinions to explain Trent the way you want.  That's backwards.  You must cast aside ALL opinions contrary to Trent.

    Offline Praeter

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 192
    • Reputation: +122/-77
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #144 on: February 07, 2020, 10:36:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr Feeney is not the only one who argued against BOD.  I'm making the point that Trent defined a specific area, with strict requirements, where BOD is ok.  All previous opinions to Trent are ignored, unless they line up with Trent.  Once a council has spoken, we must abide by what it says.  Councils > papal opinions.  Councils > Saints opinions.  Once a council has spoken, we must abide by what it says.  Councils > papal opinions.  Councils > Saints opinions.

    You are privately interpreting Trent and concluding that all the Popes, catechisms and approved theological manuals that differ with your private interpretation are disagreeing with Trent.  They are not. They are disagreeing with your false interpretation of Trent.

    This conversation is a wast of time.  What is evident is that the baptism of desire deniers are no different than Protestants. They rely on their private judgment and reject what every Catholic (with the exception of the few Feeneyites) believed before before Vatican II.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14718
    • Reputation: +6061/-904
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #145 on: February 07, 2020, 11:04:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

    Baptism is necessary for salvation with the twofold necessity of means and precept. Here’s how the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia explains the two:

    The salvific effect of baptism is the infusion of grace into the soul. This effect can be had, as the article says, by “an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism.” I would add to that an act of supernatural faith.  This is the theology of baptism as it was taught prior to Vatican II, and you can read more about it in any pre-Vatican II theological manual. You can also read about it in the 1949 Holy Office letter that condemned the errors of the Feeneyites.

    Trent decrees that if you say the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation, then you are anathema. Being Trent's Canon is defined dogma, we are bound under pain of mortal sin to believe this, yet, regardless of your source, you are saying exactly what Trent condemns while using a fallible source which seemingly obviously teaches contrary to Trent.

    I am asking sincerely here, do you realize this is contrary to Trent's canon? If not, using only Trent's canon, what do you understand the canon to mean?


    I did answer your other points, but this post got so long that I deleted the rest of this post, but we can revisit later if needed.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27431/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #146 on: February 07, 2020, 11:16:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Furthermore St. Fulgentius says: "No one can, without the sacrament of Baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal." (The Rule of Faith 43).

    Baptism of Blood in some of those Church Fathers is a bit interesting also.  St. Cyprian, one of the first to mention it, states that those who undergo Baptism of Blood actually receive the SACRAMENT of Baptism.  Now, later authors just assume that this was written in error.  But if you look at another passage from him about BoB, he states that the blood replaces the water while the angels say the words (of Baptism).  In other words, his conception was in fact that this was an alternate means of receiving the Sacrament, with an alternate matter (blood) and form (spoken by angels).  So for him BoB WAS the Sacrament of Baptism.  He did not view this as some kind of magical "exception".

    Most BoDers cite BoB as proof of BoD, but there are quite a few examples of Church Fathers who believed in BoB but explicitly rejected BoD.  So the one does NOT in fact prove the other.  They try to implicitly argue, "see, see, an exception" which they imply proves that there are OTHER "exceptions" as well.  But St. Cyprian does not consider BoB to be any exception.

    Offline ServusChristi

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 54
    • Reputation: +28/-30
    • Gender: Male
    • Roman Catholic
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #147 on: February 07, 2020, 11:26:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Baptism of Blood in some of those Church Fathers is a bit interesting also.  St. Cyprian, one of the first to mention it, states that those who undergo Baptism of Blood actually receive the SACRAMENT of Baptism.  Now, later authors just assume that this was written in error.  But if you look at another passage from him about BoB, he states that the blood replaces the water while the angels say the words (of Baptism).  In other words, his conception was in fact that this was an alternate means of receiving the Sacrament, with an alternate matter (blood) and form (spoken by angels).  So for him BoB WAS the Sacrament of Baptism.  He did not view this as some kind of magical "exception".

    Most BoDers cite BoB as proof of BoD, but there are quite a few examples of Church Fathers who believed in BoB but explicitly rejected BoD.  So the one does NOT in fact prove the other.  They try to implicitly argue, "see, see, an exception" which they imply proves that there are OTHER "exceptions" as well.  But St. Cyprian does not consider BoB to be any exception.
    Well said.
    Glory be to the Father,
    and to the Son,
    and to the Holy Spirit.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12108
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #148 on: February 07, 2020, 12:42:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    all the Popes, catechisms and approved theological manuals that differ with your private interpretation are disagreeing with Trent.
    Doctrinal Council > papal opinions > fallible catechisms > theological manuals.  Truth doesn't change.  As History shows, it's often watered down over time, especially when it's a hard truth.
    .
    It wasn't until the 1800s, when Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ had started to infiltrate the Church, and also due to the heresies of Americanism, that BOD, in the manner in which it is liberally "understood" (which is an oxymoron, since there is no universal explanation for it) became "widespread". 
    .
    Trent is not rocket science to understand.  Even St Alphonsus agrees with Trent (mostly) and he lived right after the council.  When the 1800s began, and Modernism started taking root across the globe, then even St Alphonsus looks like a "conservative extremeist".
    .
    Heck, even your explanations of BOD are FAR more liberal than St Thomas and St Alphonsus.  And you argue that there is a "consensus" on the subject since Trent.  :facepalm:  That's hilarious.  You and XavierSem don't even agree.  :jester:
    .

    Offline Praeter

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 192
    • Reputation: +122/-77
    • Gender: Male
    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #149 on: February 07, 2020, 12:50:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Trent decrees that if you say the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation, then you are anathema. Being Trent's Canon is defined dogma, we are bound under pain of mortal sin to believe this, yet, regardless of your source, you are saying exactly what Trent condemns while using a fallible source which seemingly obviously teaches contrary to Trent.

    I am asking sincerely here, do you realize this is contrary to Trent's canon? If not, using only Trent's canon, what do you understand the canon to mean?


    I did answer your other points, but this post got so long that I deleted the rest of this post, but we can revisit later if needed.  
    The canon you quoted said baptism, not the sacrament of baptism. 
     
    In the prior section on "The Sacraments in General," it qualifies the statement, by added “or the desire thereof”.  Here it the canon:

     
    The Sacraments in General: CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
     
    If you interpret that canon as meaning a person can be justified and saved by baptism of desire, your private interpretation will be in agreement with all the catechisms and theologians who addressed it after the council.  If you privately interpret the canon differently, you are no different than a Protestant.
     

    Quote
    I am asking sincerely here, do you realize this is contrary to Trent's canon? If not, using only Trent's canon, what do you understand the canon to mean?

     
    I understand the canons from Trent concerning baptism/baptism of desire to mean exactly what the following three catechisms teach:
     
    Catechism of Pius X:  
     
    Question: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
     
    Answer: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire. 
     
    Douay Catechism, 17 the century:
     
    Question: Can a man be saved without baptism?

    Answer: He cannot, unless he have it either actual or in desire, with contrition, or to be baptized in his blood as the holy Innocents were, which suffered for Christ. 

    The Baltimore Catechism

    Question: How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?
     

    Answer: Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or of desire. 
     

    If your private interpretation of the canons of Trent on baptism differs from what these three catechisms teach, please provide a quotation from any Pope or approved theologian after Trent that explicitly disagrees with what they teach. And by explicitly disagrees, I mean one who teaches that a person cannot be justified and saved by baptism of desire or blood, which produce the salvific effect of baptism without the water.