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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15223 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2020, 06:47:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on February 04, 2020, 11:57:48 AM
    LOL. Ladislaus can't even bring himself to quote the whole of what the Pope said! Notice that the Pope includes Baptized Christians as well.

    The First Teaching of His Holiness  Pope St. Pius X: A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation" [Ninth Article]

    :facepalm:

    Utter buffoon.  He's not saying that the Baptized have Baptism of Desire.  You can't even read English.  Try re-reading this sentence about a dozen times.  What he's stating is merely that those who sincerely seek the truth ,WHETHER BAPTIZED OR NOT, are "on the way of salvation".  Idiot.  Note:  this does not even say that they can be saved if they die in that state, just that they are "on the way," or on the right path.

    It's garbage like this that make poor Ascanio think that St. Pius X denied EENS.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #61 on: February 04, 2020, 06:55:00 PM »
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    • Msgr. Fenton explaining how Pius XII in Humani Generis condemns the soul vs. body explanation for how those outside the visible Church can be saved.

    https://archive.org/stream/TheCatholicChurchAndSalvation1958FentonMsgr.JosephClifford5299/The%20Catholic%20Church%20and%20Salvation%201958%20-%20Fenton%2C%20Msgr.%20Joseph%20Clifford_5299_djvu.txt
    THIS IS A BAD OCR JOB IT SEEMS SO LOTS OF TYPOS:

    Quote
    The Encyclical ** Humani generis ”

    Explanations of the Church s necessity chawn up in leims
    of this distinction were at besi inadequate and confusing and
    all too frequently infected with serious error. When the ex-
    pression “ soul of the Church was applied to sanctifying
    grace and the organism of supernatural virtues that accompany
    it, the explanation was confusing in that it stressed the fact
    that a man must be in the state of grace, and that he must
    have faith and charity if he is to attain to eternal salvation,
    but it tended to obscure the truth that a man must m some
    maimer be “ within ” the true and visible Catholic Church at
    the moment of his death if he is ever to reach the Beati
    Vision.

    When, on the other hand, some imagin.uy invisible
    Church,” some assembly of all the good people in the world,
    was designated as the “ soul of the Church, these exp anations
    lapsed into doctrinal inaccuracy. The gieat paramount mys
    tery of the Church is to be found in the fact that t e visi e
    and organized religious society over which the is op
    Rome presides as the Vicar of Christ

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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #62 on: February 04, 2020, 10:23:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2020, 06:55:00 PM
    Msgr. Fenton explaining how Pius XII in Humani Generis condemns the soul vs. body explanation for how those outside the visible Church can be saved.
    Pius XII did not condemn it and Fenton didn't say he did.  What Fenton said is the terminology led some to conclude that there existed an invisible Church to which all the good people belonged.  

    Pius X used the terminology in his catechism:

    22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
    A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.
     
    23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
    A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government. ...
     
    27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
    A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
     
    28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
    A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.
     
    29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

    A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation."

    Do you consider Pius X a Modernist?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #63 on: February 05, 2020, 05:13:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on February 04, 2020, 02:06:03 PM
    But...

    Most important for me, as a father, if what Pope Pius X taught were to be true, then would it not be a safer bet for me, as a father, to keep my daughter in invincible ignorance of our Faith and simply teach her to be a good person?

    Why would any one try to adhere to the very difficult precepts of our Faith? What would be the point? Would it not be safer and easier to be invincibly ignorant? Why would parents not hide the Truth for their children for their own sake?
    Your reasoning is 100% correct ascanio1, and there are very good reasons to be skeptical of that catechism's teaching regarding this matter.

    I could give other examples to justify skepticism of that catechism, but here is one example for your consideration:

    The catechism teaches: "Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire".

    Why on earth would anyone desire to be supplied the absence of Baptism"? What the catechism is actually saying, is that nothing at all can be supplied by martyrdom or contrition. When understood to mean as it is written, the catechism is actually saying that a BOD / BOB supply the absence of the sacrament, not the sacrament - IOW, a BOB / BOD supply nothing at all.

    That is what it is *actually* saying.

    BODers want it to say, and read it to say, and understand it to say; "If baptism is missing, then the sacrament of baptism can be supplied by...", but that is not at all what it actually says.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #64 on: February 05, 2020, 06:12:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on February 04, 2020, 10:23:46 PM
    Pius X used the terminology in his catechism:

    Do you consider Pius X a Modernist?
    1) Pius X did not write the catechism
    2) The catechism was in Italian, what you are quoting is not in Italian, it is some kind of a translation, we do not know who tampered with it.
    3) Throw it away and quote some other sources. If what you say is true, then there would be many real papal decrees, like there are for EENS, of which one would have to discard ALL of them to believe what you are teaching.


    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #65 on: February 05, 2020, 01:02:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on February 04, 2020, 10:23:46 PM
    Pius XII did not condemn it and Fenton didn't say he did.  What Fenton said is the terminology led some to conclude that there existed an invisible Church to which all the good people belonged.  

    Evidently the self-proclaimed genius can't even read English.  Pius XII explicitly ruled out the "pneumatic" view of the Church, where the souls of the Church is not co-extensive with the body, this notion that some who do not belong to the body can somehow belong to the soul.  No one can be saved unless he's within both the body and the soul of the Church.

    Now, Fenton came up with his way of getting non-Catholics in the door anyway, saying that you can be WITHIN the Church without being PART OF the Church, i.e. what I call the "undigested hamburger" ecclesiology.  But Fenton correctly rejected as non-Catholics this language that people can be saved by belonging to the soul of the Church without also being in the body.
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #66 on: February 05, 2020, 03:26:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on February 04, 2020, 10:23:46 PM
    Pius XII did not condemn it and Fenton didn't say he did.  What Fenton said is the terminology led some to conclude that there existed an invisible Church to which all the good people belonged.  

    Pius X used the terminology in his catechism:

    22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
    A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

    23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
    A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government. ...

    27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
    A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

    28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
    A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

    29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

    A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation."

    Do you consider Pius X a Modernist?
    Liarslaus has no interest in the Truth, only in his foaming at the mouth polemics filled with bitter zeal. Liarslaus would have argued with Pope St. Pius X also if he had been present here, and then and there would have been excommunicated by the Pope for obstinacy in heresy. If a person stubbornly refuses to believe individuals can belong to the Soul of the Church, through Baptism of Desire before Baptism, and through Perfect Contrition and the Desire of the Sacrament of Penance after Baptism, and stubbornly refuses correction even from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, then he or she do not belong to the Body or Soul of the Church.
    It is precisely those who do not belong either to the Body or to the Soul - i.e. who are outside Her - who will be lost. EENS means this: Heresy, Schism, Infidelity are mortal sins. If you're culpable for those mortal sins, and die in final impenitence, you are lost. Thus, we have reason to fear many Dimondite and Ibranyist heretics, who are like neo-Jansenists wickedly rising up against the Catholic Church, to their own perdition, may be lost for being culpable formal heretics, unless before death they return to the Church.
    Those who are in invincible ignorance, through Acts of Perfect Love of God and Contrition, and Desire for the Sacraments, can enter the Soul of the Church. This is the clear teaching of His Holiness Pope St. Pius X, which is stubbornly rejected by these Jansenists. 
    The Jansenist proposition that non-Christians receive no influx of Grace from Christ was condemned by the Church. Baius errors that Charity or Love of God does not remit sins in Catechumens and Penitents was also condemned by the Church and by Pope St. Pius V.
    Some of the very greatest Popes in history have condemned the faithless heretical Dimonds, Ibranyists and their deluded followers.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #67 on: February 05, 2020, 04:13:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on February 05, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
    If a person stubbornly refuses to believe individuals can belong to the Soul of the Church, through Baptism of Desire before Baptism, and through Perfect Contrition and the Desire of the Sacrament of Penance after Baptism, and stubbornly refuses correction even from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, then he or she do not belong to the Body or Soul of the Church.

    St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII (as interpreted by Msgr. Fenton) are easily reconcilable ... if one doesn't distort the meaning of St. Pius X as XavierSem does.

    I refuse correction only from XavierSem, who distorts and misinterprets the Magisterium but then claims that his interpretation is in fact the Magisterium.

    XavierSem first of all could not even parse the English of St. Pius X in absurdly claiming that the baptized could also be saved by Baptism of Desire.

    Then XavierSem interprets "belonging to the soul of the Church" to mean that they were in the Church.  Notice how St. Pius X also said that the Old Testament just "spiritually belonged to the Church."  This does not mean they were in the Church, since there was no Church yet.  This merely put them on a trajectory to enter the Church, once the Church was established.

    Similarly, those who sincerely seek the truth are "on the WAY of salvation".  SEEKING and being "ON THE WAY" clearly indicates that they have not yet arrived at the destination.  Like the Old Testmanent just mentioned in the previous question, they were ON THE WAY.

    Both only ARRIVE AT salvation upon finally entering the Church.

    But the Church is Body and Soul United.  No one is WITHIN the Church until one has entered the Church's Body AND Soul, as Msgr. Fenton explains, since the Body and Soul of the Church are co-extensive.  This notion that the soul of the Church somehow extends outside of the boundaries of the body is an error.

    In no way was St. Pius X teaching that anyone can be saved by belonging to the soul of the Church alone.  This comes only from XavierSem's confirmation bias in attempting to find support for EENS-denial in St. Pius X.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #68 on: February 05, 2020, 04:15:38 PM »
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    • Quote
    Those who are in invincible ignorance, through Acts of Perfect Love of God and Contrition, and Desire for the Sacraments, can enter the Soul of the Church.
    How is it possible for a person to desire baptism, since he's "invincibly" ignorant that it even exists?  It's impossible and illogical.  You can't desire what you don't know.  Philosophy 101.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #69 on: February 05, 2020, 04:27:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on February 05, 2020, 03:26:40 PM
    Those who are in invincible ignorance, through Acts of Perfect Love of God and Contrition, and Desire for the Sacraments, can enter the Soul of the Church.

    LiarSem pretends that St. Pius X teaches that the sincere "enter" the Soul of the Church.  What St. Pius X ACTUALLY says is that they "spiritually belong to the Church" (Old Testament just) and are "united to the Soul of the Church" (sincerely seeking truth in the new dispensation).  At no point does St. Pius X (assuming he even wrote this, which is highly disputed) say that they ENTER the Soul of the Church, as LiarSem mendaciously claims.

    Imagine a child hugging a stuffed animal tightly.  Does that animal belong to the child?  Yes.  Is that animal united with and attached to the child?  Yes.  Is that stuffed animal part of the child?  Is that stuffed animal inside the child?  Has it entered the child?  Another epic fail from XavierSem, attempting to distort Church teaching through the filters of his own confirmation bias.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #70 on: February 05, 2020, 04:51:00 PM »
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    • Pius XII teaches in Mystici Corporis that "the Holy Spirit is [the] ... Soul [of the Church]"

    Trent teaches that it is the Holy Spirit that inspires the soul to move towards justification in the Church.

    Belonging to the soul of the Church and therefore being on the way of salvation refers to this movement towards justification, but it not yet "justification itself" which "follows" (both quotes from Trent).
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #71 on: February 05, 2020, 04:58:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 05, 2020, 06:12:34 AM
    1) Pius X did not write the catechism
    2) The catechism was in Italian, what you are quoting is not in Italian, it is some kind of a translation, we do not know who tampered with it.
    3) Throw it away and quote some other sources. If what you say is true, then there would be many real papal decrees, like there are for EENS, of which one would have to discard ALL of them to believe what you are teaching.


    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.
    Ladislaus,
    Why do you say Pius X said? He didn't write that catechism. Read the above. I can understand XavierSem saying that, he has nothing from any pope, but why do you repeat what he says, that "Pius X wrote"?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #72 on: February 05, 2020, 05:12:18 PM »
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    • Invincible Ignorance is old school, not used anymore for obvious reasons (see below (*). Now they just say that the Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew.... people in all religions can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards. Yes, any of the 1000's of gods.  

    (*)
    Hindu asks - Do you think that Mahatma Ghandi was saved?

    XavierSem - Oh, yes, he could have been saved because he was invincible ignorant

    Hindu - Say what?

    XavierSem - Oh yes,  Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew.... people in all religions can be saved if they are Invincible ignorant.

    Hindu - But didn't the Holy Office under Pius X say that Confucius is in Hell?

    XavierSem - Oh, Just ignore Pius X, only listen to the Catechism in English with his name on it, I'll interpret it for you,trust me, forget about the Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith.



    Quote
    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #73 on: February 05, 2020, 05:41:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 05, 2020, 04:58:57 PM
    Ladislaus,
    Why do you say Pius X said? He didn't write that catechism. Read the above. I can understand XavierSem saying that, he has nothing from any pope, but why do you repeat what he says, that "Pius X wrote"?


    I qualified that at one point that it was highly doubtful he wrote it.  I did not repeat that qualification every single time.  I will not categorically say that he did not write it.  He issued the catechism in 1908.  How much of that he actually wrote himself is not known, but he did issue it himself.  Now, an abridged version appeared in 1930.  So at that point, who can know what was done to it?  It's also been "translated."  I would like to see the Original 1908 copy.  But I can neither confirm NOR DENY that he wrote these things.  I explain, however, that there was nothing wrong with what was written in the citation ... even if it was very inopportune given the climate of growing EENS-denial.
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #74 on: February 05, 2020, 08:39:25 PM »
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    • I have a sincere question for the baptism of desire deniers.   I am assuming you all know BOD is taught in all the pre-Conciliar theological manuals and catechism, and was universally held by all before Fr. Feeney came along.  Assuming you are aware of that, here's my question.

    Does it cause you any concern to know that what you believe concerning salvation differs from what all the trained theologians believed and taught prior to Vatican II?  And the difference is not merely at the level of the conclusion.  It is deeper. The difference is at the level of the premises you are using to arrive at your conclusion, or rather in the theology you are basing your conclusions upon.  The difference in the conclusions is the result of a different theology.   Your theology differs from that of all the approved theologians prior to Vatican II.  It differs from that of the seminary professors, from the priests who were ordained by them, and from the bishops, Cardinals and Popes. And errors at the level of theology are dangerous.  How can that not bother you?

    The only answer I can come up with is that you're not aware that BOD was an undisputed doctrine prior to Vatican II.  But how could you not know that?  Anyway, I am sincerely curious to understand your thinking.  
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