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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15228 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2020, 09:16:56 PM »
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  • This might sound strange, but just looking at this situation from another perspective. I would agree with the third comment, i.e. it would be impossible for a Protestant to be in such a case unless he was mentally handicapped. We also should consider that the Protestant religion is totally repugnant to the natural law. Only a person of bad will would believe that he could commit such and such a sin without any sort of punishment. Humans intuitively know that God rewards good and punishes evil.
    To be clear, I'm not DEFENDING Protestantism, but having been in it before my conversion...

    1: Protestants usually believe Jesus paid the penalty outright for them, not that there isn't any punishment.  Mind, that's still a misunderstanding, they (to greater or lesser degrees) espouse monergism instead of synergism, and there are serious biblical problems with this, but they usually aren't saying the sins aren't punished at all.

    2: Protestants USUALLY will say that if someone flagrantly sins without remorse or abandon they aren't *really* covered by Christ's blood.  I mean yeah, there's a major no true scotsman here.  And yeah, its a lot less precise than the Catholic system.  But MANY protestants would deny "Yeah I just can sin all I want, I'll be fine."

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #31 on: February 02, 2020, 10:34:35 AM »
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  • No Pax, what you are talking about applies to infants, but according to canon law, even in danger of death an adult may not be baptized without having first expressed the desire to be baptized a Catholic.
    Merry Sunday to you Stubborn, could you, kindly, reference the canon that you cite?
    Tommaso
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #32 on: February 02, 2020, 11:23:58 AM »
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  • Adults (i.e. those at the age of reason) do not receive sanctifying grace without a cooperation of the will and proper disposition of the intellect.  Infants receive these as infused virtues without said cooperation, but adults cannot.  This is taught clearly by the Council of Trent.  So, for instance, if I were walking down the street, grabbed a random adult Hindu, and baptized him, would he be put into a state of grace?  No, of course not.  This is true whether or not he commits a mortal sin afterwards or not.  He's simply lacking the proper disposition to be baptized.  Similarly with a Protestant.  If he doesn't have the proper dispositions to faith and charity present, Baptism would not auto-magically put him into a state of grace.

    Let's say I find an infant in the jungle and baptize him.  He's put into a state of grace.  But he goes on to be raised by his pagan parents.  Once he reaches the age of reason, the cooperation and affirmation of faith is required in order to sustain supernatural faith.  With this lacking, the infused virtue of faith is lot at the age of reason.  Similarly with a baptized infant Protestant.

    Supernatural faith can be missing by simple absence.  Without supernatural faith, there can be no supernatural charity.  So an actual mortal sin is not required for sanctifying grace to be lost.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #33 on: February 02, 2020, 11:29:59 AM »
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  • So, what's MORE at issue is whether a Protestant is capable of having supernatural faith.  That is the real question.  Baptism by itself does not put him into a state of grace that remains until mortal sin ... if he is not capable of having supernatural faith.  So I think that this is the wrong question.  We need to discuss whether or not it is possible for a Protestant to have supernatural faith.

    I hold that it is not possible for a Protestant to have supernatural faith.  Now, is it possible that there's some person so befuddled and so ignorant that he does have the core basics of the faith in such away that it's not uprooted?  I cannot necessarily rule that out.  But in that case, he would in fact be a Catholic and not a Protestant.  But I would consider this ... if it's possible at all ... to be incredibly rare, and I hold that God WOULD in fact lead such a one into the Church if he were properly disposed in this way.

    So, for instance, let's say some Prot minister goes to the jungle, teaches a person about the basics, the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, and then proceeds to baptize him after he comes to believe him.  This person has no clue about there being Catholicism or Protestantism or any other such details.  At that point, the baptized man is a Catholic.  But as soon as he begins to learn about the various Prot heresies that uproot faith, then he would lose the faith.  Is there some Prot who's so ignorant and befuddled that he's in a similar state as this savage in my example, who just knows the basics and hasn't had his faith polluted and uprooted by heresy?  In other words, can there be such a thing as a Prot who's a purely-material heretic?  As I said, I can't rule it out, but believe that God leads all of His elect into the visible Church.  But those Protestants who believe in faith alone and Sola Scriptura are formal heretics because they have their belief system founded on a false rule of faith that ultimately reduces to their own private judgment.  Formal heresy deals with the WHY of belief, while material heresy deals with the WHAT of belief.  If you had a Protestant who just so happened to believe every single Catholic doctrine because he deduced them from the Bible, he would still be a formal heretic, since the REASON he believes them does not suffice as the formal motive of supernatural faith.  He would merely have a correct natural faith, but not a supernatural faith.

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #34 on: February 02, 2020, 11:37:41 AM »
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  • Can anyone post what the FFSPX position on the OP is?

    -------------------------
    OT1: My FFSPX priest recognizes that ANYONE can validly baptize ANYONE. Whether it is the correct thing to do, and sinful or not, is another matter.
    Adults (i.e. those at the age of reason) do not receive sanctifying grace without a cooperation of the will and proper disposition of the intellect.  Infants receive these as infused virtues without said cooperation, but adults cannot.
    In reference to this, above, I mention this incident with the FSSPX priest and others. We were all having lunch and a lady told us a story of when she delivered in hospital: she had just delivered her own baby and was in a twin bedroom, in hospital, next to a Jehovah's witness mother, with her Jehovah's witness newly born baby. When the Jehovah's witness mother went to the bathroom, the lady who was with us, got up and went over to the other baby's crib and baptized the Jehovah's witness baby by saying the correct words, using water and correct gestures. The baptism was valid. But the lady who administered the baptism (unknown to the other mother and unrequested by the baby or its mother) committed sin. The Jehovah's witness baby would grow up to become an apostate and, as such, he/she would die outside the Church and in greater sin than if he/she had never been baptized.

    This is taught clearly by the Council of Trent.
    Kindly, could you reference this? Also, was that council infallible (dogmatic)?

    OT2: My FSSPX priest affirms that BoD is possible in principle but extremely unlikely in practice.
    Tommaso
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #35 on: February 02, 2020, 11:42:54 AM »
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  • Can anyone post what the FFSPX position on the OP is?

    -------------------------
    OT1: My FFSPX priest recognizes that ANYONE can validly baptize ANYONE.

    Correct.  If I baptized the random Hindu in my example, he would in fact be VALIDLY baptized.  He would receive the character of Baptism.  But he would not receive the sanctifying grace that normally accompanies the Sacrament.  So, in other words, if some day he converted to the faith, he would not need to be baptized again.  But of course I would commit the grave sin of sacrilege by baptizing this Hindu and conferring the Sacramental character on an infidel.  As for your example about an infant, now the infant WOULD be put into a state of grace.

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #36 on: February 02, 2020, 11:48:33 AM »
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  • So, what's MORE at issue is whether a Protestant is capable of having supernatural faith.  That is the real question.  Baptism by itself does not put him into a state of grace that remains until mortal sin ... if he is not capable of having supernatural faith.  So I think that this is the wrong question.  We need to discuss whether or not it is possible for a Protestant to have supernatural faith.

    I hold that it is not possible for a Protestant to have supernatural faith.  Now, is it possible that there's some person so befuddled and so ignorant that he does have the core basics of the faith in such away that it's not uprooted?  I cannot necessarily rule that out.  But in that case, he would in fact be a Catholic and not a Protestant.  But I would consider this ... if it's possible at all ... to be incredibly rare, and I hold that God WOULD in fact lead such a one into the Church if he were properly disposed in this way.

    So, for instance, let's say some Prot minister goes to the jungle, teaches a person about the basics, the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, and then proceeds to baptize him after he comes to believe him.  This person has no clue about there being Catholicism or Protestantism or any other such details.  At that point, the baptized man is a Catholic.  But as soon as he begins to learn about the various Prot heresies that uproot faith, then he would lose the faith.  Is there some Prot who's so ignorant and befuddled that he's in a similar state as this savage in my example, who just knows the basics and hasn't had his faith polluted and uprooted by heresy?  In other words, can there be such a thing as a Prot who's a purely-material heretic?  As I said, I can't rule it out, but believe that God leads all of His elect into the visible Church.  But those Protestants who believe in faith alone and Sola Scriptura are formal heretics because they have their belief system founded on a false rule of faith that ultimately reduces to their own private judgment.  Formal heresy deals with the WHY of belief, while material heresy deals with the WHAT of belief.  If you had a Protestant who just so happened to believe every single Catholic doctrine because he deduced them from the Bible, he would still be a formal heretic, since the REASON he believes them does not suffice as the formal motive of supernatural faith.  He would merely have a correct natural faith, but not a supernatural faith.
    @ Ladislaus, would this analogy also hold for an Orthodox Chrsitan? I would guess yes. So, to save an Orthodox, the Orthodox would have to convert.

    A question arises. Would a baptized Orthodox or protestant go directly to hell or purgatory to espiate (I am not sure what the English word for it is. Maybe atone)?


    This is taught clearly by the Council of Trent.
    Could you kindly cite the passage?
    Tommaso
    + IHSV

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #37 on: February 02, 2020, 11:56:27 AM »
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  • @ Ladislaus, would this analogy also hold for an Orthodox Chrsitan? I would guess yes. So, to save an Orthodox, the Orthodox would have to convert.

    A question arises. Would a baptized Orthodox or protestant go directly to hell or purgatory to espiate (I am not sure what the English word for it is. Maybe atone)?

    Same would apply of the Orthodox.  Is it possible that there's some Orthodox out there who's so confused and befuddled that his schism and heresy are purely material?  Perhaps.  But I should think it incredibly rare.  But then he would in fact be a Catholic and not Orthodox.  If, however, he's not Catholic, then he would go to hell.  But if he is Catholic, then whether he went to Purgatory would depend on his degree of culpability with regard to his material errors (and of course his other sins).


    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #38 on: February 02, 2020, 12:05:17 PM »
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  • Same would apply of the Orthodox.  Is it possible that there's some Orthodox out there who's so confused and befuddled that his schism and heresy are purely material?  Perhaps.  But I should think it incredibly rare.  But then he would in fact be a Catholic and not Orthodox.  If, however, he's not Catholic, then he would go to hell.  But if he is Catholic, then whether he went to Purgatory would depend on his degree of culpability with regard to his material errors (and of course his other sins).
    Some yes, are confused or ignorant. For example, my wife, did not fully understand the Filioque difference. When I explained it, she concluded that if Jesus is God, then God cannot receive anything from anyone, nothing can proceede from anyone else before it reaches God and also Jesus cannot be created by the Father as Jesus/God too must be of the same substance of the Father.
    Tommaso
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #39 on: February 02, 2020, 12:39:30 PM »
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  • Quote
    No Pax, what you are talking about applies to infants, but according to canon law, even in danger of death an adult may not be baptized without having first expressed the desire to be baptized a Catholic.

    Merry Sunday to you Stubborn, could you, kindly, reference the canon that you cite?
    And also to you.

    From Commentary on Canon Law 1917:

    Quote
    595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.

    If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)

    Also, there's this from Trom Trent's Catechism:

    Quote
    Dispositions for Baptism

    Intention

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #40 on: February 04, 2020, 07:42:18 AM »
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  • Wrong thread.  This discussion is about someone already baptized.
    Read what I quoted again more carefully. It includes those already baptized. You are rejecting the teaching of the Pope and the Church.
    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
    A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation" [Ninth Article]
    Last Tradhican is a blasphemer who believes there is no such thing as the Holy Ghost. For he says, absurdly and foolishly, "there is no such thing as the soul of the Church" and "the soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost". What stupidity on his part. Temerarious blasphemer. This is what happens when you deny doctrine out of hatred for souls, and sinful desire for them to be lost.
    Real Theologians explain the Uncreated Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost Himself. The Created Soul of the Church is either the persons (like separated Christians in good faith, who are said to belong, to the soul of the Church) themselves, or, sometimes, the created gifts of sanctifying grace, are called the created soul of the Church. It is plainly taught above that the persons can be united to the Soul of the Church. Anyone who condemns this is suspect of heresy as he temerariously and blasphemously condemns Pope St. Pius X. According to Dimondite stupidity, he should become an Ibranyist heretic, and depose His Holiness Pope St. Pius X for his "heresy".
    Quote
    Such a one, by virtue of Baptism, belongs to the Church soul and body ... and is in fact a Catholic.


    Did you read that in a Catechism or a Manual, or is it your home-baked theology? The 1917 code plainly says that such persons who are in good faith are still yet not given the Sacraments - which shows they do not belong to the Body of the Church; for if they did, then they could not be denied the Sacraments. The Body of the Church is visible. The Soul of the Church is invisible. Catechumens, unjust excommunicantes, separated Christians in good faith etc all belong to the Church indeed, but not to Her Body; they are united to Her soul.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #41 on: February 04, 2020, 08:22:53 AM »
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  • Read what I quoted again more carefully. It includes those already baptized. You are rejecting the teaching of the Pope and the Church.
    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, ...

    Are you really this daft, man?  How can Baptism be supplied for someone who's already baptized?  BoD simply does not apply to those who are already baptized.  What's under discussion for them is whether or not they are capable of being only materially heretical or schismatic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #42 on: February 04, 2020, 08:31:20 AM »
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  • Did you read that in a Catechism or a Manual, or is it your home-baked theology? The 1917 code plainly says that such persons who are in good faith are still yet not given the Sacraments - which shows they do not belong to the Body of the Church; for if they did, then they could not be denied the Sacraments.

    You have a fault notion regarding the "Body of the Church" ... as most EENS-deniers like yourself do.  Such as these do in fact formally belong to the Body of Church.  All the baptized have the Sacramental character which incorporates them into the Church.  So they cannot merely belong to the "Soul" of the Church ... which is a concept, by the way, clearly condemned by Pius XII.  All that's going on here is the refusal of the Sacraments is the presumption by the Church based on the external forum that they are outside the Church.  You can only go by what you see in the external forum.  There's no way for the Church to judge, based on the internal forum, that they DO belong to the Church so as to give them the Sacraments.  You extrapolate from this mere inability of the Church to judge the internal forum into a false soul-body ecclesiological dichotomy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #43 on: February 04, 2020, 08:33:16 AM »
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  • Last Tradhican is a blasphemer who believes there is no such thing as the Holy Ghost. For he says, absurdly and foolishly, "there is no such thing as the soul of the Church" and "the soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost". What stupidity on his part. Temerarious blasphemer.

    No, you're just an idiot.  What he's saying is that there's no such thing as a SEPARATE STANDALONE INDEPENDENT "soul of the Church" that is not united to the Body.  This is clearly taught by Pope Pius XII and thoroughly explained by Msgr. Fenton.  Would you like me to paste in the multiple paragraphs that Msgr. Fenton wrote debunking the soul-body bifurcation of the Church?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #44 on: February 04, 2020, 09:37:39 AM »
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  • So, what's MORE at issue is whether a Protestant is capable of having supernatural faith.  That is the real question.  Baptism by itself does not put him into a state of grace that remains until mortal sin ... if he is not capable of having supernatural faith.  So I think that this is the wrong question.  We need to discuss whether or not it is possible for a Protestant to have supernatural faith.

    I hold that it is not possible for a Protestant to have supernatural faith.  Now, is it possible that there's some person so befuddled and so ignorant that he does have the core basics of the faith in such away that it's not uprooted?  I cannot necessarily rule that out.  But in that case, he would in fact be a Catholic and not a Protestant.  But I would consider this ... if it's possible at all ... to be incredibly rare, and I hold that God WOULD in fact lead such a one into the Church if he were properly disposed in this way.

    So, for instance, let's say some Prot minister goes to the jungle, teaches a person about the basics, the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, and then proceeds to baptize him after he comes to believe him.  This person has no clue about there being Catholicism or Protestantism or any other such details.  At that point, the baptized man is a Catholic.  But as soon as he begins to learn about the various Prot heresies that uproot faith, then he would lose the faith.  Is there some Prot who's so ignorant and befuddled that he's in a similar state as this savage in my example, who just knows the basics and hasn't had his faith polluted and uprooted by heresy?  In other words, can there be such a thing as a Prot who's a purely-material heretic?  As I said, I can't rule it out, but believe that God leads all of His elect into the visible Church.  But those Protestants who believe in faith alone and Sola Scriptura are formal heretics because they have their belief system founded on a false rule of faith that ultimately reduces to their own private judgment.  Formal heresy deals with the WHY of belief, while material heresy deals with the WHAT of belief.  If you had a Protestant who just so happened to believe every single Catholic doctrine because he deduced them from the Bible, he would still be a formal heretic, since the REASON he believes them does not suffice as the formal motive of supernatural faith.  He would merely have a correct natural faith, but not a supernatural faith.
    What if the Protestant was just 8, technically above the age of reason, baptized, but still doesn't really know what things like "faith alone" means, and visibly attends a Presbyterian Church?