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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15462 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2019, 08:14:40 AM »
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  • My question to stubborn is doesn’t receiving the sacrament in a Protestant church have to be known in some way in order to be mortal?  Can you ignorantly commit a mortal sin?

    As far as Mattos comment, I’m not sure what’s “too few to be worth mentioning” and I’m not super concerned about that question.  You could think there are none, but still think it’s theoretically possible, and your position wouldn’t differ at any essential principle from mine.  I’m trying to understand the underlying theological principles of those who say it’s impossible, how that reconciles with ex opere operato sacraments. Stubborn seems to think you can commit a mortal sin by pure accident, I don’t think that’s right.  Last Tradhican seems to think God would providentially prevent any situation where someone who isn’t in mortal sin doesn’t enter visible communion.  Maybe 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #16 on: December 23, 2019, 08:32:07 AM »
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    As such, you are correct, baptism washes away all sin, but only if they are baptized in the Catholic Church, if they are baptized into a prot church, their original sin is certainly removed, but at the same time they commit a mortal sin of sacrilege by receiving the sacrament outside of the Church, they profane a holy thing. If that person were to die on his way home, he would face God with that mortal sin on his soul.
    I don't think this is totally right.  It's not a sin to receive baptism in a protestant church anymore than it's a sin to be baptized in a hospital bed or as one is lying, bleeding in a dirty street after a fatal car crash.  Baptism is a unique sacrament that can be received almost anywhere, and administered by almost anyone (even an atheist), as long as the proper form is used and the person receiving it has the proper intentions.
    .
    I don't believe that an adult protestant who receives baptism immediately commits a mortal sin of sacrilege in any way.  They also don't apostatize immediately either (normally).  It would depend on the person and their knowledge.  Some protestant "churches" don't even think baptism is necessary, but only optional and a unique ceremony.  Other "churches" think it's absolutely necessary, so those adults that get baptized are usually those who grow up with very little religious training and so baptism is really their first steps toward God.  For these people, they just learned about the Bible/Christ; they wouldn't know enough about Catholicism to reject it.  As they progress in learning the protestant bible, and as they learn to hate Catholicism, THEN they would be guilty of apostasy, but that can be a gradual process and it also depends on the graces that God gives them, which He surely gives to all baptized persons to lead them to the truth. 
    .
    I just heard a story about an 20s-something Episcopalian girl who started showing up at a Trad chapel.  She's a history student who found out about Traditionalism when she heard about Fatima and used the internet to find out what the story was all about.  She told a friend that after seeing a latin mass, she felt this was the one, true religion.  ...Can we say that she apostatized long ago, when she never knew the Truth?  I don't think so.  It's very hard to judge these types of situations.  Many times these people are material heretics but not formal because "they don't know what they don't know." 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #17 on: December 23, 2019, 08:34:20 AM »
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  • My question to stubborn is doesn’t receiving the sacrament in a Protestant church have to be known in some way in order to be mortal?  Can you ignorantly commit a mortal sin?
    That a sin has been committed is certain, so yes, certainly you can commit a mortal sin in ignorance. Indeed, the oldest of all Novenas, "The Novena to the Holy Ghost", says that "Sin is the result of ignorance, weakness and indifference".

    What is uncertain to us, is the degree of culpability.  For our part, we are supposed to know whether "X" is a sin or not before we commit the act, that is why God gave us brains, otherwise, the best course of action is to be as ignorant as possible so as not to bare any responsibility whatsoever before God for our actions.

       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #18 on: December 23, 2019, 08:48:27 AM »
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  • See my responses in red above.

    The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized :

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: “… Leo XIII, of immortal memory in the Encyclical, “Divinum illud,” [expressed it] in these words: ‘Let it suffice to
    state this, that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, the Holy Ghost is her soul."

    Second, the Church is essentially (i.e., in its essence) a Mystical Body.
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516: “… the mystical body, the Church (corpore mystico)…”

    Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 8), May 26, 1910: “… the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ…”

    Pope Leo XII, Quod Hoc Ineunte (# 1), May 24, 1824: “… His mystical Body.”

    Therefore, to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Body is to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Church, since the Church is a Body.

    A man can be either inside the Church or outside the Church. He can be either inside or outside the Body. There isn’t a third realm in which the Church exists – an invisible Soul of the Church. Those who say that one can be saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church, while not belonging to her Body, deny the undivided unity of the Church’s Body and Soul, which is parallel to denying the undivided unity of Christ’s Divine and Human natures.

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

    The denial of the union of the Church’s Body and Soul leads to the heresy that the Church is invisible, which was condemned by Popes Leo XIII (above), Pius XI and Pius XII.
    Third, the clearest proof against the “Soul of the Church” errpr logically follows from the first two already discussed. The third proof is that the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church has defined that belonging to the Body of the Church is necessary for salvation! Pope Eugene IV, in his famous Bull Cantate Domino, defined that the unity of the ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that no one can be saved outside of it, even if he sheds his blood in the name of Christ.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics can become participants in eternal life, but they will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the flock; and that the unity of this ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that only for those who abide in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fasts, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of a Christian soldier produce eternal rewards. No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”



    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”

    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and nonexempt,belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same will…”

    Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi (# 3), Dec. 12, 1769: “One is the body of the Church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it.”

    XavierSem rejects the clear infallible dogmas above with his opinions and a quote from a fallible catechism in Italian which is falsely translated into English.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #19 on: December 23, 2019, 08:51:06 AM »
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  • I don't think this is totally right.  It's not a sin to receive baptism in a protestant church anymore than it's a sin to be baptized in a hospital bed or as one is lying, bleeding in a dirty street after a fatal car crash.  Baptism is a unique sacrament that can be received almost anywhere, and administered by almost anyone (even an atheist), as long as the proper form is used and the person receiving it has the proper intentions.
    No Pax, what you are talking about applies to infants, but according to canon law, even in danger of death an adult may not be baptized without having first expressed the desire to be baptized a Catholic.  

    The sacraments belong to Holy Mother the Church. They are strictly her property and as such, she dictates the laws concerning them. She basically says: "You want to be baptized? - wonderful, then you have to be baptized a Catholic because we have not preserved the integrity of this sacrament for 2000 years so that a prot can use my sacrament in order to baptize you into their church".

    I could be wrong but I think the only sacrament the Church will allow for outside of the Church is Matrimony - someone can check that.

    If I get to it, I will look for the reference to this, and that a sacrilege results in being baptized outside of the Church.
    In the mean time, I came across this the other day, whether or not this is valid doesn't matter imo, this is a video of a sacrilege.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #20 on: December 23, 2019, 08:54:54 AM »
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  •  Last Tradhican seems to think God would providentially prevent any situation where someone who isn’t in mortal sin doesn’t enter visible communion.  Maybe
    St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #21 on: December 23, 2019, 09:06:57 AM »
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  • The short version for people like XavierSem who totally reject clear doctrines to seek teachers according to their own desires:


    The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized A man can be either inside the Church or outside the Church. He can be either inside or outside the Body. There isn’t a third realm in which the Church exists – an invisible Soul of the Church. These two dogmas are clear on this, I really do not need to say anything more:

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #22 on: December 23, 2019, 09:23:17 AM »
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  • The scenario is indeed unrealistic. If the person was baptized it was only by God's grace, if the person never committed a mortal sin it is a miracle, again by God's grace. If he died while still a Protestant his life was taken by God. So the OP takes God out of the picture when it comes to completing the conversion which God 100% brought into being and then the OP kills the person before he asks to be a Catholic, then asks if the person is saved? Totally unrealistic.
    I don't think it's unrealistic at all.  There are people in isolated areas --- think deepest Appalachia --- who never interact in any meaningful way with anyone who is "different" from them, might only have been to the nearest reasonably good-sized city a few times in their lives (for medical care, possibly a school field trip, etc.), and whose life revolves around whatever little town, county, or school district they happen to live in.  Their only knowledge of Catholicism comes from distorted snippets on TV, and random concepts of Catholics being people who drink too much (these people approach alcohol the way faithful Catholics approach sɛҳuąƖ sin), sodomite priests who abuse children, and superstitious immigrants and their descendants who fall down and worship statues of Mary as though she is a goddess.  It is possible that they've stumbled upon a Jack Chick comic book here and there.  Their little church, their little town, and their family and friends are all they know.  A tiny minority of them even handle poisonous snakes.  (I don't care what anyone says, a person who takes a venomous snake in their hands and drinks strychnine is nothing if not sincere.  They're not doing it for show.)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #23 on: December 23, 2019, 09:31:33 AM »
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    I could be wrong but I think the only sacrament the Church will allow for outside of the Church is Matrimony - someone can check that.

    If I get to it, I will look for the reference to this, and that a sacrilege results in being baptized outside of the Church.
    I see what you're saying but there's also the facts of how the Church treats those who were baptized in protestant churches - namely, 1) such baptisms are treated as valid, and 2) the Church does not "conditionally" re-baptize these people.  Why?  Because 99% of the time, they hold the requisite tenets of the Faith necessary for baptism - belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity.  So, in a sense, when such people are baptized, they are in the state of grace and (I don't think) they (always) would commit a sacrilege or a sin of apostasy (immediately).  But, does the Church treat them as if they were heretics/apostates, if they want to become Catholics?  Yes. 
    .
    I'm not disagreeing with you in theory; I only disagree with the explanation that IMMEDIATELY after receiving baptism, a protestant is in sin.  This doesn't make sense to me.  The sin of apostasy or heresy involves the will to accept error, and it's not like the protestants get baptized and then turn, and immediately spit on a picture of Our Lady to finish the ceremony.  There's a wide variety of protestant belief out there, and while protestant ideals ALWAYS lead to error, I don't think that individuals in such "churches" are anti-Catholic right out of the gate, the split second after they get baptized.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #24 on: December 23, 2019, 09:53:46 AM »
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  • I see what you're saying but there's also the facts of how the Church treats those who were baptized in protestant churches - namely, 1) such baptisms are treated as valid, and 2) the Church does not "conditionally" re-baptize these people.  Why?  Because 99% of the time, they hold the requisite tenets of the Faith necessary for baptism - belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity.  So, in a sense, when such people are baptized, they are in the state of grace and (I don't think) they (always) would commit a sacrilege or a sin of apostasy (immediately).  But, does the Church treat them as if they were heretics/apostates, if they want to become Catholics?  Yes.


    It is the Church who makes it a sacrilege to be baptized outside of the Church re: the video I posted as an example.

    Regardless of whatever false religion it happens, all baptisms done properly are valid, but adults who receive it outside of the Church as if it is nothing more than a type of initiation, commit a sacrilege and are in sin immediately after they are baptized - because not only did they receive the sacrament with an improper disposition, they received it for the wrong reason altogether.

    If they had known the Church's actual requirements for the reception of the sacrament, and it is likely they did know at least something about the requirements, but regardless - the truth is that they would have never desired or wanted to be baptized a Catholic at all - which is the reason they were baptized outside of the Church.

    So while they (may or) may not have outright publicly rejected any doctrines of the Church, they sin by embracing wrong ideas and wrong beliefs, which beliefs are inherently anti-Catholic whether they acknowledge them as such or not. This means that they are living in sin before, during and after baptism - with the added sin of sacrilege for being baptized outside of the Church.

     


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #25 on: December 23, 2019, 11:52:36 AM »
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  • I don't think it's unrealistic at all.  There are people in isolated areas --- think deepest Appalachia --- who never interact in any meaningful way with anyone who is "different" from them, might only have been to the nearest reasonably good-sized city a few times in their lives (for medical care, possibly a school field trip, etc.), and whose life revolves around whatever little town, county, or school district they happen to live in.  …..)
    They are living in "in isolated areas --- think deepest Appalachia" because God made them born there and live there for some reason. If before they die they never convert, it is only because they rejected God's grace. Nothing, not time (the times they were born and died), not place, not circuмstances, NOTHING is not foreseen by God and directed by God.

    Till people really understand and imbibe what St. Augustine teaches below, they will forever be in the vortex of confusion, and like children, will forever be asking "what about if?"  :

    St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:

    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #26 on: December 23, 2019, 12:21:49 PM »
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  • I don't think it's unrealistic at all.  There are people in isolated areas --- think deepest Appalachia --- who never interact in any meaningful way with anyone who is "different" from them, might only have been to the nearest reasonably good-sized city a few times in their lives (for medical care, possibly a school field trip, etc.), and whose life revolves around whatever little town, county, or school district they happen to live in.  Their only knowledge of Catholicism comes from distorted snippets on TV, and random concepts of Catholics being people who drink too much (these people approach alcohol the way faithful Catholics approach sɛҳuąƖ sin), sodomite priests who abuse children, and superstitious immigrants and their descendants who fall down and worship statues of Mary as though she is a goddess.  It is possible that they've stumbled upon a Jack Chick comic book here and there.  Their little church, their little town, and their family and friends are all they know.  A tiny minority of them even handle poisonous snakes.  (I don't care what anyone says, a person who takes a venomous snake in their hands and drinks strychnine is nothing if not sincere.  They're not doing it for show.)
    LT is right, it is totally and completely unrealistic, I will go so far as to say it's impossible, or all but impossible. Original sin is washed away, but our inclination to sin, our tendency to do evil remains with us our whole life.

    What you are suggesting is rooted in Liberalism, more specifically, Naturalism.

    As explained in this snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen:

    "They [the bishops] are going to have to recognize that liberalism is intrinsically false and will not work, because beneath liberalism, the philosophical basis of liberalism, is what we call Naturalism. Naturalism proclaims, among other heresies, that there is no such thing as original sin, that man is basically good, that he means well and if you let him grow up, he’ll grow up good, he’ll grow up moral, he’ll grow up to be a good fellow.
     
    But Catholic doctrine says that man is not basically good, that he comes into the world bent on evil and if you leave him to himself, he’ll become a savage, he’ll become amoral. He’ll not only do most wicked things but he will try to justify them.
     

    We have to recognize that this is the error of liberalism, that it wants to treat all men as if they really are not bad and that the only reason they are bad is that they are misguided, that they’re victims of circuмstances and of their environment.  That they are bad because their mother, or their father, or their parents mistreated them, or because they were deprived of something, or because they didn’t get a chance to go to school with white folk, and all that kind of thing. And we say that no, a man is bad because of original sin and he doesn’t mind being bad, he chooses to be bad. In other words, he cannot blame his wickedness on Adam only, because with every day that passes, he confirms the evil within himself.

    At the second Vatican council they tried to say that; "men are bad, that men are anti-Catholic, because the Church has not treated men correctly, and if the Church approached them kindly, and with understanding and you might say with intelligence, modern public relations - they would have come into the Church instead of opposing it and being against us in every way and distrusting it and even engaging in efforts to destroy it".

    And the bishops are going to have to recognize that original sin is operative in every soul and it always will be, and that all men have to be disciplined, they have to acknowledge that by themselves they will do wicked things. And Almighty God in the Church established an authority over them, and they may not like to be told what to do, but they must be told what to do, and they must be warned of the consequences of not doing it, and the consequences ultimately are hell fire..."


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #27 on: December 23, 2019, 08:19:09 PM »
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  • If (1) he was validly baptized in the Name of the Holy Trinity (2) is excused by reason of invincible ignorance from the mortal sin of heresy; (3) believes explicitly in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, and (4) loves God or Our Lord Jesus Christ perfectly, with contrition; such a person can belong to the soul of the Church, and we say of him that he is a Christian united to the Church in desire. Those who deny this possibility are mistaken. Even Fr. Feeney, and St. Benedict's Centre, for e.g. do not.

    You're missing a key ingredient.  It is not enough for someone to believe in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, but they must believe it with the correct formal motive of faith.

    Also, you're wrong that such a person (if you add the ingredient of the correct formal motive) belongs to the "soul of the Church."  Such a one, by virtue of Baptism, belongs to the Church soul and body ... and is in fact a Catholic.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #28 on: December 23, 2019, 08:20:21 PM »
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  • Catechism of His Holiness Pope St. Pius X: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286
    "17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    Wrong thread.  This discussion is about someone already baptized.

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #29 on: January 24, 2020, 08:26:09 PM »
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  • This might sound strange, but just looking at this situation from another perspective. I would agree with the third comment, i.e. it would be impossible for a Protestant to be in such a case unless he was mentally handicapped. We also should consider that the Protestant religion is totally repugnant to the natural law. Only a person of bad will would believe that he could commit such and such a sin without any sort of punishment. Humans intuitively know that God rewards good and punishes evil.