To be clear, I *don't* want to get into pagans at all on this particular thread.  We've had other threads to talk about that.  I know some people are gonna instantly refuse to participate on this thread for that reason, OK whatever. But this question is specifically about Christians who have been baptized by water (ie. this isn't a BOD thread, at least not directly.)

So here's my question.  And I wanna understand if I'm missing something.

From what I understand, baptism, ex opere operato, removes all original sin and all past mortal sins.  From what I understand this works automatically when administered.  Is this correct or not and if not why not?

Given that that's the case, it seems like a baptized Christian, would either have to be culpable for his heresy, or else be culpable for some *other* mortal sin to be damned, is this correct?  if not why not?

Particularly, I have in mind Ladislaus' idea (and to be clear the idea is what's important here, its just him that I've heard articulate it) that the only material heretics are those who have the correct formal rule of faith.

But this raises a question.  Let's say for the sake of argument, and maybe this is ridiculous but its intended to illustrate a principle.  Say you have a Baptist church in the middle of some wilderness community somewhere, everyone in the town goes to this church, reads the Bible, Pastor Jim Bob always teaches people to follow their own interpretation of the Bible and not to follow him.  Billy John gets baptized at age 18.  Lives his whole life in that community.  Marries.  has kids.  Teaches them his religion.  Never commits any mortal sins.  Never encounters anyone who isn't baptist, ever.  

He's baptized, so his mortal sins have definitely been wiped away.  he didn't commit any new ones.  Is he somehow culpable for his heresy?  ANd if not, what's the basis for his not being saved?  Or is this scenario just not possible for some reason?

I don't think this scenario is realistically possible. However if it were possible and he was validly baptized and never committed any mortal sin, he would be saved as a Catholic because he was baptized into the Church. But unless he was mentally retarded, if he was instilled with the Holy Ghost, I believe God would enlighten him and he would notice the errors in the Baptist Church teaching and question it and look for the truth.

Union of Christendom, 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia: "The Catholic Church is by far the largest, the most widespread, and the most ancient of Christian communions in the world, and is moreover the mighty trunk from which the other communions claiming to be Christian have broken off at one time or another. If, then, we limit the application of the term Christendom to this, its most authentic expression, the unity of Christendom is not a lost ideal to be recovered, but a stupendous reality which has always been in stable possession. For not only has this Catholic Church ever taught that unity is an essential note of the true Church of Christ, but throughout her long history she has been, to the amazement of the world, distinguished by the most conspicuous unity of faith and government, and this notwithstanding that she has at all times embraced within her fold nationalities of the most different temperaments, and has had to contend with incessant oscillations of mental speculation and political power. Still, in another and broader sense of the term, which is also the more usual and is followed in the present article, Christendom includes not merely the Catholic Church, but, together with it, the many other religious communions which have either directly or indirectly, separated from it, and yet, although in conflict both with it and among themselves as to various points of doctrine and practice agree with it in this: that they look up to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Founder of their Faith, and claim to make His teaching the rule of their lives. As these separated communities when massed together, indeed in some cases even of themselves, count a vast number of souls, among whom many are conspicuous for their religious earnestness, this extension of the term Christendom to include them all has its solid justification. On the other hand, if it is accepted, it becomes no longer possible to speak of the unity of Christendom but rather of a Christendom torn by divisions and offering the saddest spectacle to the eyes. And then the question arises: Is this scandal always to continue? The Holy See has never tired of appealing in season and out of season for its removal but without meeting with much response from a world which had learnt to live contentedly within its sectarian enclosures. Happily a new spirit has lately come over these dissentient Christians, numbers of whom are becoming keenly sensitive to the paralyzing effects of division and an active reunion movement has arisen which, If far from being as widespread and solid as one could wish, is at least cherished on all sides by devout minds ... We may safely leave to the Providence of God to determine what course the present reunion movement shall ultimately take, and meanwhile we may emphasize the substantial point that Catholics and other reunionists have in common: their mutual desire to see the barriers that separate them removed. They can co-operate, too, in working for the good cause in useful ways without any surrender of their own principles. For they can cultivate friendly personal relations, to the formation of which it will greatly contribute if they can work together for objects, social or otherwise, as to the value of which they are agreed. There is a special value in the personal friendships thus formed, for they tend to dissolve the obstacles which come from sheer misunderstandings and the animosities that these engender. And they can further co-operate for the removal of these same obstacles by positive efforts to understand one another correctly, particularly by the others seeking and the Catholics, if they are competent, showing a readiness to give simple explanations of the true character of their beliefs and practices." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15132a.htm

Holy Office Decree on the Ecuмenical Movement: "Now in many parts of the world, as a result of various external events and changes of views on the part of people, but especially in consequence of the common prayers of-the faithful through the grace of the Holy Spirit, there has grown constantly in the minds of many persons separated from the Catholic Church the desire for a return to unity on the part of all who believe in the Lord Christ. To the children of the Church this is surely a cause of true and holy joy in the Lord, and at the same time an invitation to help all those who sincerely seek the truth, by earnest prayer to God imploring for them the grace of light and strength.

However, some of the initiatives that have hitherto been taken by various individuals or groups, with the aim of reconciling dissident Christians to the Catholic Church, although inspired by the best of intentions, are not always based on right principles, or if they are, yet they are not free from special dangers, as experience too has already shown. Hence this Supreme Sacred Congregation, which has the responsibility of conserving in its entirety and protecting the deposit of the faith, has seen fit to recall to mind and to prescribe the following ... It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return."

On Dec. 20th 1949. https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-the-ecuмenical-movement-2070

Matto, St. Benedict's Centre doesn't deny that separated Christians can be in material heresy for a while. I agree with SBC on this.

St. Augustine said this: "But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics." From: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

And St. Thomas Aquinas: "Therefore, as regards the primary points or articles of faith [Holy Trinity and Incarnation; see the earlier articles], man is bound to believe them, just as he is bound to have faith; but as to other points of faith, man is not bound to believe them explicitly, but only implicitly, or to be ready to believe them, in so far as he is prepared to believe whatever is contained in the Divine Scriptures. Then alone is he bound to believe such things explicitly, when it is clear to him that they are contained in the doctrine of faith." From: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3002.htm#article5

The Council of Florence, Matto, treated most Eastern Christians, including Eastern Bishops who came to that Council, as Christians erring in good faith; up until the point when, after refusing many admonitions from the Council Fathers some of them (like Mark of Ephesus) became obstinate, while others (like Abp. Bessarion, later a Cardinal) became Eastern Catholic. After having waited patiently for nearly 400 years to uproot the horrible Greek Orthodox schism of Photius and Caerularius, then, and only then, in that decree you are mentioning, the Catholic Church said, formal heretics, who do not persevere in the Unity of the Catholic Church - having these people in mind, people like Mark of Ephesus who were formal schismatics - cannot be saved, even if they shed blood in the name of Christ, or give everything they have as alms. Why? The mortal sin of heresy.

Here, Matto, is an example of a great Catholic Evangelist who evangelized tens of thousands of Protestants and secured their return to the Church. "A transient visitor at Chicago in 1875 remarked that "a letter which arrived while I was there, announced to Father Rector the happy conclusion of a mission at Scranton, with 12,000 Communions, 19 converts, 200 adult First Communions, etc., but I found it was scarcely minded, such items being commonplace there. In 1879, after twenty-two years of excursions from Chicago, it was reckoned that Father Damen had conducted in person 208 missions, averaging two weeks time for each; he had travelled on an average of 6,000 miles each year; he and his different bands of companions together had given 2,800,000 Holy Communions and had made 12,000 conversions to the Faith. At one church in New York a party of his missionaries in the course of four weeks distributed no less than 42,000 Holy Communions." https://www.olrl.org/apologetics/churchbible.shtml

Fr. Arnold Damen knew well that some separated Christians were erring in good faith; and he also knew well how to reconcile them. What Catholic Christendom so urgently needs is 1000s of good Priests like him, who do not fall into a false rigorism, but can correctly and prudently judge the state of relative good faith or lack thereof in separated Christians, and use that judgment to bring them back.

In brief, there is a great difference between (1) Formal Heretics or Formal Schismatics who initiated Heretical or Schismatic sects (2) Separated Christians born, through no fault of their own, in a separated Christian community or separated Eastern Church (3) While even the latter must be evangelized, of course, to the Catholic Faith; those who always treat them as formal heretics will hardly secure their return. Many Good Priests, who know well the Catholic Faith, and are fully faithful to the Church, have not treated them so; but have, by the Grace of God, secured their return. Whom will God approve? The important thing is to Evangelize Evangelicals, as Fr. D did.

You were just arguing that saying ... was a mortal sin

It is. St. Alphonsus said so in several paragraphs, as mentioned there; but I did not judge anyone's subjective culpability, and only gave a friendly warning, to help people avoid it in future. Objectively, it is mortal. But subjectively, it may, for e.g. be venial, because of lack of full culpability. That's only for a Confessor to judge, in the tribunal of penance. It must be confessed to him, and the Priest will judge.

The same is true of heresy and schism. Heresy is a mortal sin and someone spreading heresy must be warned of the heresy and told so. He must be told he must enter the Church and confess the sin. And that's what the Church does, but She knows some err in good faith.

In good faith, a separated Christian can belong to the soul of the Church. He can be saved, yet not exactly as he is; but, in the hour of death, in a way known to God, he will have to become Catholic. Before going to Heaven, or Purgatory, he will have to confess the Truth of the Catholic Faith - but this will not be known to us, unless God makes it known to His Saints, or others; as He sometimes has done.

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm#P1Lxii 19th Century Catechism of Christian Doctrine:


Let me ask you two specific questions: (1) I wrote an article for Orthodox Christians showing the Dogma of the Filioque from Scripture and Tradition, and urging them to believe in the Dogma. Yet, I also addressed them as Christians and separated brethren near the end. Please read it and tell me what you think: https://onepeterfive.com/filioque-separated-east/ At least two Orthodox Christians after reading it have told me they returned to the Catholic Church. Do you believe I was wrong, in that article, to call them as Christians?

(2) Consider two Priests, let's say, Father A and Father D: Father A believes all Protestants and Orthodox are formal heretics or formal schismatics, but makes no effort at all to evangelize them. Father D believes some Orthodox or Evangelicals may be Christians erring in good faith, makes very tiresome efforts to evangelize them, and by the Grace of God, reconciles 1000s of them to the Church; whom will God approve, in your opinion, Matto, Father A or Father D? 

God Bless.

So here's my question.  And I wanna understand if I'm missing something.

From what I understand, baptism, ex opere operato, removes all original sin and all past mortal sins.  From what I understand this works automatically when administered.  Is this correct or not and if not why not?

To be clear, we are talking about the baptism of adults, not infants or children baptized before they reach the age of reason.

As such, you are correct, baptism washes away all sin, but only if they are baptized in the Catholic Church, if they are baptized into a prot church, their original sin is certainly removed, but at the same time they commit a mortal sin of sacrilege by receiving the sacrament outside of the Church, they profane a holy thing. If that person were to die on his way home, he would face God with that mortal sin on his soul.

If this does not seem right to you, consider that it is as much a sacrilege as if a priest were to apostatize, become a Baptist preacher and give out valid hosts and wine every Sunday to his congregation of prots. They are profaning a holy thing, which is a sacrilege committed by both the priest, and all of those receiving the sacred body and blood unworthily.    

The Church even forbids baptizing the invincibly ignorant (insane, retarded, or some brain injury that prevent them from thinking) even in danger of death unless before becoming insane they have shown a desire for Baptism.

Here are actual prot baptisms, valid and sacrilegious.

no one errs in "good faith"

Code of Canon Law, 1917: "Heretics and schismatics, who err in good faith ..." (Canon 731) St. Augustine's teaching above: "such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you". St. Augustine judged that the person he was speaking to was only in material heresy; i.e. a Christian erring in good faith. 

If that were so, every non-Catholic around me would convert instantly upon my teaching them

That would depend on whether you taught them correctly. As I was saying, if you just assume all are formal heretics, and you are incorrect, you may very well place an impediment in what God wants to do through you. St. Optatus, who reconciled many Donatists to the Church, also made allowance for their good faith; he taught them clearly that schism was a grave sin, but culpability is another thing.

Conversion is not man's doing, it is totally of God.

In some cases, yes, like in St. Paul's conversion; in all cases, God is the First Cause of man's conversion. But the Holy Ghost very often chooses to use instruments in accomplishing this His Purpose. The very Great Commission of Christ our Lord (Mat 28:18-20) teaches us this plainly, as does the Church's unanimous missionary understanding of it. 

Remember that God can turn stones into sons of Abraham.

No doubt; but God also expects us to do what we can, to help those around be saved, if they are non-Catholics, and sanctified if they are already Catholics; at least beginning by constant prayer and sacrifice for them first, to lead them back to the Church. So, applied to Protestants, if a person is a serious Protestant, and believes in the Divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of Scripture; he should be taught, e.g. about the Real Presence, from John 6, 1 Cor 11 etc. It is presumptuous to expect God to send Angels to teach this. He can do that also, but we are bound to what we can for the salvation of our non-Catholic friends. 

there is no such thing as the soul of the church ... The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost

You just contradicted yourself. If there is no such thing as the soul of the Church, and the soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost, you are saying, there is no such thing as the Holy Ghost. You may not have intended to, but that's what you said; second, as explained in the Catechisms cited, here is Pope St. Pius X: "A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints." Theologians speak of uncreated and created soul of the Church. The uncreated Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost Himself. The created soul of the Church are His gifts of grace; separated Christians can share in these gifts.

one can be saved without belonging to the Church, since the Church is a Body.

This is a classic non sequitur. It does not follow: it's on par with saying. Man is a soul. A soul is not a body. Therefore, Man is not a Body. It is an absurdity; Man is a composite of both soul and body. In the same way, the Church is composed of both body and soul.

even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ

Yes, if he is a formal heretic, or a formal schismatic; since formal heresy and formal schism are mortal sins no one should commit. That does not address Christians who err in good faith. The Church has even traditionally treated these two cases as completely different. 

See in that Holy Office decree, the separated are often referred to as Christians. Formal heretics are not called Christians. Only those in material heresy are called such: "However, some of the initiatives that have hitherto been taken by various individuals or groups, with the aim of reconciling dissident Christians to the Catholic Church, although inspired by the best of intentions, are not always based on right principles, or if they are, yet they are not free from special dangers, as experience too has already shown ... In order that so noble a work as the "union" of all Christians in one true faith and Church may daily grow into a more conspicuous part of the entire care of souls, and that the whole Catholic people may more earnestly implore this "union" from Almighty God, it will certainly be of assistance that in some appropriate way, for example through Pastoral Letters, the faithful be instructed regarding these questions and projects, the prescriptions of the Church in the matter, and the reasons on which they are based. All, especially priests and religious, should be exhorted and warmly encouraged to be zealous by their prayers and sacrifices to ripen and promote this work, and all should be reminded that nothing more effectively paves the way for the erring to find the truth and to embrace the Church than the faith of Catholics, when it is confirmed by the example of upright living." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-the-ecuмenical-movement-2070 The Church used expressions like "dissident Christians" instead of "all heretics and schismatics" because She knows this.