Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians (Read 15021 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #90 on:** February 06, 2020, 07:22:16 AM »

Quote from: donkath on February 06, 2020, 07:10:45 AM

Praeter I believe iin your sincerity when you say you are curious to understand the thinking of those who reject BOD.

I don't.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #91 on:** February 06, 2020, 07:23:59 AM »

Quote from: Praeter on February 05, 2020, 08:39:25 PM

I have a sincere question for the baptism of desire deniers. I am assuming you all know BOD is taught in all the pre-Conciliar theological manuals and catechism, and was universally held by all before Fr. Feeney came along. Assuming you are aware of that, here's my question.

There have been 100 threads on this subject. Use the search engine.

Praeter · « **Reply #92 on:** February 06, 2020, 08:51:24 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on February 06, 2020, 07:22:16 AM

I don't.

It was a sincere question.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #93 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:02:11 AM »

Quote from: Praeter on February 04, 2020, 10:23:46 PM

Pius X used the terminology in his catechism:

Do you consider Pius X a Modernist?

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1) Pius X did not write the catechism
2) The catechism was in Italian, what you are quoting is not in Italian, it is some kind of a translation, we do not know who tampered with it.
3) Throw it away and quote some other sources. If what you say is true, then there would be many real papal decrees, like there are for EENS, of which one would have to discard ALL of them to believe what you are teaching.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Let me see, Pius X didn't write the catechism, the catechism is not infallible, you have a tampered translation, and the line you are quoting does not say what you say.

Meanwhile, you deny all of these clear infallible dogmas written by many different popes and councils.

Do you consider all those popes idiots?

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Dogmas are the final word from the Holy Ghost, being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them. The doctrine says clearly that only Catholics go to Heaven; all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell. All who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.

The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so.

Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, any person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy!

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a god that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a god that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it, their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” (Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

Chapter VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. On Baptism
Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.” ( persons who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)

(Oh, I forgot invincible ignorance, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invincible ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #94 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:02:41 AM »

Quote from: trad123

I

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absolutely deny that a person whose public profession of faith is their Hinduism, Pharisaical Judaism, Protestantism, Eastern Schism, etc. can be united to the body of the Church by desire, and in fact united to the soul of the Church.

Then you deny the Dogma of the Catholic Church. Your quarrel is not with anyone else other than with Pope St. Pius X, St. Alphonsus, St. Augustine, St. Robert, St. Thomas etc.

The Church Militant (De Ecclesia Militante), c. 2: "Others, however, are of the soul but not of the body (of the Church), as Catechumens and those who have been excommunicated, who may have faith and charity which is possible."

De Controversiis, “De Baptismo,” Lib. I, Cap. VI: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water not out of contempt but out of necessity... For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities...Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire (in re vel in voto)”. http://www.baptismofdesire.com/

Also, those who are Dimondite heretics don't belong to the Body of the Church, since you reject the Episcopal Body of the Church. Better hope that you can at least belong to Her Soul by not being obstinate against Her, otherwise you do not belong to Her in any way at all.

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I refuse correction only from XavierSem, who distorts and misinterprets the Magisterium but then claims that his interpretation is in fact the Magisterium.

The Infallible Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.has clearly taught Baptism of Desire. If you stubbornly reject Baptism of Desire, you are an obstinate heretic, and you can never go to Heaven. Better don't do that, but retract your opinion, and come back to the Catholic Faith, without which you cannot save your soul.

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Notice how St. Pius X also said that the Old Testament just "spiritually belonged to the Church."

Thanks for pointing out yet another refutation of your stupidity. The OT just spiritually belonged to the Church because they were JUST i.e. justified, and therefore in the Church. The Holy Father refutes you in this way as well. Catholic Theologians have long known and taught the OT Just had one sole means of justification, to obtain remission of sin, Perfect Contrition.

III. IS IT DIFFICULT TO MAKE AN ACT OF PERFECT CONTRITION? No doubt, it is more difficult to make an act of Perfect Contrition than an Imperfect one, which suffices when we go to Confession. But still, there is no one who, if he sincerely wishes it, cannot, with the grace of God, make an act of Perfect Contrition. Sorrow is in the will, not in the senses or feelings. All that is needed is that we repent because we love God above everything else; that is all. True it is that Perfect Contrition has its degrees, but it is none the less perfect because it does not reach the intensity and sublimity of the sorrow of St. Peter, of St. Mary Magdalene, or of St. Aloysius. Such a degree is very desirable, but is by no means necessary. A lesser degree, but, provided it proceeds from the love of God, and not through fear of His punishments, is quite sufficient. And it is very consoling to remember that for the 4000 years before the coming of Christ the only means sinners had of obtaining pardon was this same Perfect Contrition. There was no Sacrament of Penance in those days. Even today for thousands-aye, for millions-of pagans, of non-Catholics, and of Catholics, too, who have no time to call a priest to their bedside, the only means of pardon and salvation is an act of Perfect Contrition. https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-110.shtml

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This does not mean they were in the Church, since there was no Church yet

What stupidity. You may as well say, they were not incorporated in Christ yet. Of course they were incorporated in Christ, and in that way they belong to Him spiritually. One has to belong to the Church either corporally or spiritually in order to be saved.

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being "ON THE WAY"

Wrong again. They are on the way to salvation because they are in the Ark spiritually. Those outside the Ark are on the way to damnation, and therefore cannot be said on the way to salvation along with Catholics. The OT Just were on the way of salvation, since they were justified. The OT unjust, who finally became reprobate, were not in any way on the way of salvation.

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No one is WITHIN the Church until one has entered the Church's Body AND Soul, as Msgr. Fenton explains, since the Body and Soul of the Church are co-extensive.

More lies from Liarslaus. Msgr. Fenton clearly says one can be spiritually within the Church without being a corporal member of Hers. Msgr. Fenton was only correcting an abusive misunderstanding of the soul of the Church, in that passage that Ladislaus wrests to his own destruction.

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EENS-denial in St. Pius X.

Get it through your thick skull once and for all that the Dogma of Baptism of Desire does not contradict the Dogma of EENS.

EENS means: Heretics who are obstinate cannot save their soul. Why? Heresy is a mortal sin. Those who commit it are certainly outside the Church.

EENS does not mean: Separated Christians who err in good faith are outside the Church. They can be united to the Soul of the Church through Perfect Contrition or Desire.

BOD means: Non-Christians and Catechumens, who are in good faith, and who have made an Act of Perfect Contrition can be united to the Soul of the Church through Desire.

BOD does not mean: Those who are formal heretics, formal schismatics, positive infidels etc can be saved. These are culpable for their mortal sins and outside the Church.

Invincible ignorance means: There is no culpability for the mortal sin of heresy, schism or infidelity respectively.

Perfect Contrition means: The Desire to receive the Sacrament of Baptism or Penance (before and after Baptism respectively), animated by supernatural charity or contrition.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #95 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:05:38 AM »

On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament." http://www.baptismofdesire.com/

What obstinate pride to think you know better than St. Alphonsus, St. Pius X and all the Saints, Popes and Doctors of the Catholic Church.

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Imagine a child hugging a stuffed animal tightly.

An absurdity of the first order that is not at all analogous.

Nothing can belong to my soul without being inside me.

If Grace belongs to my soul, it is obvious Grace is inside me.

If my soul is united to God, it is obvious I am in God and God is in me.

There is a difference between belonging to the soul and to the body.

But those who belong to the soul are in the Church contra Ladislaus.

Baptism of Desire is itself the Perfect Providence of God for all.

What contemptuous hatred for other souls and desire for them to be lost that some of you have.

How absolutely far you are from the Spirit of God, Who is not willing that any should be lost, but that all should to come to the Truth, Who is Christ, and be saved; and from the Father, Who is not willing that any should perish but all come to contrition.

You want yourself to have access to Perfect Contrition for all the many daily mortal sins you commit, but you sinfully want to deny it to others. Well, you have no power at all to bind God, and God has already told us He moves souls to contrition, by uniting them to the Soul of the Church.

A true Catholic Missionary, imitating his Divine Master, has love for souls and desire to save them.

A reprobate Dimondite heretic, imitating his satanic master, has hatred for souls and desire to damn them.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #96 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:20:50 AM »

XavierSem,
Please answer the below question. I am posting it again.
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XavierSem said: Those who are in invincible ignorance, through Acts of Perfect Love of God and Contrition, and Desire for the Sacraments, can enter the Soul of the Church.
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My question: How is it possible for a person to desire baptism, since he's "invincibly" ignorant that it even exists?

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #97 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:37:15 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 06, 2020, 09:20:50 AM

XavierSem,
Please answer the below question. I am posting it again.
.
XavierSem said: Those who are in invincible ignorance, through Acts of Perfect Love of God and Contrition, and Desire for the Sacraments, can enter the Soul of the Church.
.
My question: How is it possible for a person to desire baptism, since he's "invincibly" ignorant that it even exists?

This below excerpt should answer your question, Pax Vobis. Let me know if it does not.

"Now, if it is true that God does not wish the death of a sinner, it follows that He does not wish to impose on His creatures a contrition or sorrow beyond their powers, but one that is within the reach of everyone. And so, if millions of poor creatures who, through no fault of their own, live and [visibly] die outside the True Fold, if these can obtain the grace of Perfect Contrition, do you imagine, dear reader, that it will be difficult for you-you who enjoy the happiness of being a Christian and a Catholic, and so are capable of receiving much greater graces than they-you who are far better instructed in things divine than the poor infidels are?

But I dare to go even further. Often, very often, without even thinking of it, you have Perfect Contrition for your sins. For example, when you hear Mass devoutly or make the Stations of the Cross properly; when you reflect before your crucifix or an image of the Sacred Heart. What is more, every time you say the 'Our Father,' in the first three petitions you make three acts of perfect charity, each of which is sufficient to cancel every sin from your soul.

Very often, a few words suffice to express the most ardent love and the most profound sorrow -for instance, the little ejaculations, 'My Jesus, mercy,' 'My God and my All,' 'My God, I love Thee above all things,' 'My God, have mercy on me, a poor sinner.' Aided by the grace of God (and God has promised to give to all who ask), it is by no means difficult to make an Act of Contrition. Take the case of David, who for one curious look fell into the sin of adultery, and then of murder. Having committed these sins, he lived on quite unconcerned about the state of his soul till the prophet Nathan came to reprove him. And this reproach induced David to make an act of Perfect Contrition in a few words, 'Pec- cavi Domino' ('I have sinned against the Lord'). So efficacious was his contrition that the prophet, inspired by God, exclaimed, 'The Lord has forgiven you.'

Take, again, the case of Mary Magdalen�'a public sinner. She did not even say one word, but simply wept at the Feet of Jesus. Jesus saw the sorrow in her heart, and, turning to her, said: 'Woman! because thou hast loved much thy sins are forgiven thee.' See, then, how little is needed-only to love God above everything. And love demands neither time nor trouble; it suffices to think of Jesus crucified, for it is impossible then not to love Him, and to be sorry for the sins by which we have crucified Him.

Remember the good thief -a robber condemned to death-and yet for those few words spoken from his heart, 'Lord, remember me when Thou shalt come into Thy Kingdom,' he was immediately promised Heaven by Christ Himself: 'Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.'

Lastly, look at St. Peter, who denied his Master three times. Jesus looked at him; Peter said not a single word, but, 'going out, wept bitterly.' He was forgiven; he was chosen by Christ to be His first successor on earth-the Prince of the Apostles- and to-day is one of the most glorious saints in Heaven.

Dear readers, should we ever have the misfortune to offend God, let us give a look at the tabernacle where Jesus is palpitating with love for us, or let us think of Calvary. Our hearts will be touched. We will repent. We shall be forgiven and saved."

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #98 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:38:45 AM »

That didn't answer the question at all.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #99 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:44:37 AM »

Read it carefully and properly. It contains the answer. Reflect on the questions, how were King David, St. Mary Magdalene etc forgiven?

Consider this one also: Are you bound to confess all your sins in number and kind by divine law in order to be forgiven? Yes.

But suppose you happen to be invincibly ignorant of a former sin, can you still be forgiven? If God applied your rigorist ways, then no.

But, because God is Merciful to those who show Mercy, and Loves those who love and desire the salvation of all, those who are sincerely contrite for all their sins - which universal contrition implicitly includes every former sin, even forgotten sins - can receive the remission of them all.

It is similar. This is an example of having an implicit desire contained in a universal desire of contrition, to do all that God Wills out of Perfect Love for Him. Read the clear explanation given earlier from St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church, as well.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #100 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:54:24 AM »

But what does contrition for sins have to do with desiring baptism? Nothing. Trent mentions contrition for sins as a REQUIREMENT to be baptized (which is a newness of life). Trent does NOT say that such contrition = desire for the sacrament. You mix the two together and this is anti-Catholic.
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Again, 3rd time, how does an invincibly ignorant person desire baptism (which desire Trent requires) if he does not know baptism exists?
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How does an invincibly ignorant person make a "perfect" act of contrition, if he doesn't even know Jesus, or His Church, or the True God? Jesus told us that "no man cometh to the Father except through Me." Yet you say it's possible for an ignorant person to go to the Father without knowing Jesus or His Church? That's so wrong on so many levels.

Praeter · « **Reply #101 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:59:56 AM »

Quote from: donkath on February 06, 2020, 07:10:45 AM

Praeter I believe iin your sincerity when you say you are curious to understand the thinking of those who reject BOD. I am no spring-chicken and for many years have always THOUGHT that people can be invincibly ignorant and that a good God could not deny them salvation through no fault of their own.

I appreciate your reply. I'll comment to some of the points you made.

Regarding invincible ignorance, do you know what that is referring to? When it is said someone who is invincibly ignorant can possibly be saved, do you know what the Church means the person is invincibly ignorant of (the object)? They are invincibly of the Catholic Church. What that means is explicit knowledge of the Catholic Church is not absolutely necessary for salvation. That's what invincible ignorance is referring to.

Quote from: donkath on February 06, 2020, 07:10:45 AM

Everyone I knew thought the same way even teachers and priests.

Have you ever considered that the reason everyone believed it is because it is true, and that you are the one that is mistaken?

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It astounds me still, that having read through so much material here on Cath Info I have arrived with the certainty of faith that BOD has no foundation in the Church’s teaching and that it is a great universal kind of sin (if you like) against Our Lord’s very own Word(s).

So the entire Church embraced a doctrine with no foundation in Church teaching, and which explicitly denies our Lord's very words?

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I have only had my basic catechism to teach me the truths of my Catholic faith. I truly appreciate the solid material provided by Ladislaus, Stubborn and Pax Vobis who obviously know canon law and the teachings of the Councils - this particular one being the Council of Trent.

Canon law says catechumens who die unbaptized are to be treated as if they were baptized. Why do you think it says that? The only ones who interpret Trent as contradicting BOD are the Feeneyites. The Church herself, and every approved author that has commented directly addressed the issue, has interpreted Trent as teaching BOD.

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Their perseverance and patience in answering the same questions over and over again have been an inspiration and it has been sad to see their charitable dealings with the many people who have insulted them for their efforts.

I wonder if Zwingly said the same about Luther.

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If Our Lord did not mean specifically and exactly what he said then I could not trust Him. I would not have the Faith at all. And I have only just realised that!

Our Lord also said we must eat His Flesh AND drink His blood in order to have eternal life. "Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day." (John 6: 54-55)

Do you believe Him? If so, how can a child be saved before receiving their first communion, and how can an adult be saved without receiving communion under both forms? If you do believe it is possible for a baptized child to be saved before receiving communion, or for any of the billions of Catholic laity over the past 2000 years to have been saved without receiving communion under both forms, then you don't believe Our Lord meant "specifically and exactly what he said" and therefore, according to your reasoning, you also don't trust Him.

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I have seen quite clearly that the argument for BOD came from fallible human beings no matter if they became saints during their lifetimes and/or canonised saints after death.

And the denial of BOD didn't?

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When presented with the de fide teachings of the Church

Think about what you are saying. Do you really believe the entire Church would have believed an error that was contrary to a de fide teaching of the Church? What you were presented with is the private interpretation of Church teaching by Feeneyite heretics.

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a man who cannot wait to start on the road to true contrition by being baptised then going on the straight path through the other Sacraments to his eternal salvation.

Be sure not to skip the Sacrament of communion under both forms. And for that you'll have to go to the Novus Ordo Mass. The NO is necessary or salvation!

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As an aside and so as keep this observation separate I would like to mention Fr. Feeney here. ... Also posted there is Bread of Life which if anyone reads will be overcome by the beauty of his very soul as he demonstrates his great love of Mother Church;

Fr. Feeney said a person can be justified - receive the state of grace - without water baptism. Did you know that? And guess why he believed that? He believed it because that's how he interpreted the Council of Trent taught it. Fr. Feeney himself interpreted the teaching that a person can be transferred into the state of righteousness "by the desire" for baptism, as meaning a person could enter into the state of grace without water baptism. He didn't think a person could be saved, but he did think they could be justified. Fr. Feenye's novelty forced him to admit (in The Bread of Life) that he didn't know where a person would go if they died in the state of grace without being baptized.

Praeter · « **Reply #102 on:** February 06, 2020, 10:08:46 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 06, 2020, 09:02:11 AM

Do you consider all those popes idiots?

Do you believe this dogma, as it is written? "'We declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

The dogma states explicitly that it is absolutely necessary to be subject to the Pope to be saved. No exceptions. If you believe the dogma, as it is written, you must conclude that it is impossible for a sedevacantist or anyone who dies during an interregnum to be saved. So, which is it: do you agree that every person who dies as a sedevacantist will go to hell (as I do), or do you deny the dogma?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #103 on:** February 06, 2020, 10:16:42 AM »

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Regarding invincible ignorance, do you know what that is referring to? When it is said someone who is invincibly ignorant can possibly be saved, do you know what the Church means the person is invincibly ignorant of (the object)? They are invincibly of the Catholic Church. What that means is explicit knowledge of the Catholic Church is not absolutely necessary for salvation. That's what invincible ignorance is referring to.

So many people use the terms 'explicit' and 'implicit' incorrectly that one would think dictionaries don't exist.
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If one is invincibly ignorant of the Church, then they are both EXPLICITLY and IMPLICITLY ignorant. That's what "invincible" means - 100% ignorant.
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How can one implicitly have knowledge of a Church he is 100% ignorant of? It makes absolutely no sense, which is why it's heresy.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #104 on:** February 06, 2020, 10:17:50 AM »

Quote from: Bellator Dei on February 06, 2020, 10:13:23 AM

And how does one become "subject to the Roman Pontiff"?

One becomes subject to the Holy Father at Baptism (this is taught by Trent). Beyond Baptism, one can formal intent to sever this subjection by going into schism.

Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians (Read 15021 times)

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