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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15487 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #450 on: February 23, 2020, 07:47:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 23, 2020, 07:07:47 PM
    As you know and just to be clear, I believe in the orthodox “conservative” position with regard to BOD. You said: “ Even if some uphold it as a theoretical possibility, there's no proof that anyone has ever been saved in this manner.” How do you explain the case of Saint Emerentiana?

    That would not be BoD but BoB.  There's no proof that she wasn't already baptized.  It was common practice in the early church during times of persecution to baptize catechumens but otherwise treat them as catechumens (and call them catechumens); they would continue in their instruction while being actually baptized.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #451 on: February 23, 2020, 07:48:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 23, 2020, 07:12:49 PM
    It seems to me that you’re in good faith, I’m just concerned about your welfare.

    Thanks, Quo.  In order for something to be certain with the certainty of faith, it has to be, well, certain.  Of the theologians surveyed by Father Cekada, only a small handful said BoD was de fide.  If it were truly de fide, there would be unanimity among them on that point.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #452 on: February 23, 2020, 08:02:46 PM »
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    • Quo Vadis, what is your opinion on the Cardinal Dulles article on the other thread?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #453 on: February 23, 2020, 08:34:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 23, 2020, 08:02:46 PM
    Quo Vadis, what is your opinion on the Cardinal Dulles article on the other thread?
    Modernist garbage. It leads to the heresy of universal salvation.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #454 on: February 23, 2020, 08:57:46 PM »
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    • Yeah but what part are you rejecting?  75% of the article was a history on the EENS, which clearly shows a marked increase in liberalism in the 1600s onwards.  So are you disputing this change, or just the conclusion which these changes lead to?
    .
    Do you or do you not admit that the 1600s started novel thinking? 
    .
    Where do you draw the line with these novelties?  You believe in St Alphonsus but you don’t go further?  Or you accept salvation for ignorant natives...which is a liberalization of even St Alphonsus?  
    .
    I honestly want to know how you (and others) draw a line?  If St Alphonsus can liberalize St Thomas, and if the Pius X catechism can liberalize St Alphonsus, and if the 1940s Cushing can liberalize the Pius X catechism and condemn Feeney, then why can’t V2 and Rahner and Dulles liberalize Cushing?  Where do the “doctrinal developments” end?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #455 on: February 23, 2020, 09:18:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 23, 2020, 08:57:46 PM
    Yeah but what part are you rejecting?  75% of the article was a history on the EENS, which clearly shows a marked increase in liberalism in the 1600s onwards.  So are you disputing this change, or just the conclusion which these changes lead to?
    .
    Do you or do you not admit that the 1600s started novel thinking?
    .
    Where do you draw the line with these novelties?  You believe in St Alphonsus but you don’t go further?  Or you accept salvation for ignorant natives...which is a liberalization of even St Alphonsus?  
    .
    I honestly want to know how you (and others) draw a line?  If St Alphonsus can liberalize St Thomas, and if the Pius X catechism can liberalize St Alphonsus, and if the 1940s Cushing can liberalize the Pius X catechism and condemn Feeney, then why can’t V2 and Rahner and Dulles liberalize Cushing?  Where do the “doctrinal developments” end?
    Actually I think you make a fair argument, but here are my thoughts.... Outside the Church there is no salvation, period. People can become incorporated into the Church unbeknownst to anyone. For instance, a validly baptized Protestant could be given the graces necessary before he dies to make an act of perfect contrition and could be saved unbeknownst to anyone around him. In the case of a catechumen who died before receiving baptism and was instructed on the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Redemption, that person could be saved by the desire of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism or by shedding his blood for Christ, provided the person made an act of perfect contrition and was thus in a state of sanctifying grace before he died.

    BTW, just to be clear, in the case of the Protestant above, he did NOT die a Protestant, he died a Catholic. I believe that the Church teaches that persons baptized in heretical sects are still considered members of the Church until they reach the age of 14. Ladislaus, please correct me on this if I’m wrong about that.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #456 on: February 23, 2020, 09:31:20 PM »
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    • Ok, I understand those situations. For the sake of argument, I agree.  
    .
    Now for the million dollar question- what about ignorant natives?  THIS is where the liberalization started creeping in.   What say you?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #457 on: February 23, 2020, 09:35:57 PM »
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    • One more thing to add above about the Protestant, if he showed no sign of conversion before his death, we must assume he was lost. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #458 on: February 23, 2020, 09:44:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 23, 2020, 09:31:20 PM
    Ok, I understand those situations. For the sake of argument, I agree.  
    .
    Now for the million dollar question- what about ignorant natives?  THIS is where the liberalization started creeping in.   What say you?
    Well they must certainly need to believe in the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the redemption. Basically, they would be in the same boat as catechumens. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #459 on: February 23, 2020, 09:53:07 PM »
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    • Well then they wouldn’t be ignorant anymore, right?  So you believe (correctly) that an ignorant native is damned.  Thanks for being clear and direct. I do appreciate it!
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #460 on: February 23, 2020, 10:14:27 PM »
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    • Quote
    As you know and just to be clear, I believe in the orthodox “conservative” position with regard to BOD. You said: “ Even if some uphold it as a theoretical possibility, there's no proof that anyone has ever been saved in this manner.” How do you explain the case of Saint Emerentiana?


    Scroll down to page 121 for an answer to this question.
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #461 on: February 24, 2020, 03:28:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 23, 2020, 09:53:07 PM
    Well then they wouldn’t be ignorant anymore, right?  So you believe (correctly) that an ignorant native is damned.  Thanks for being clear and direct. I do appreciate it!
    No, of course they wouldn’t be ignorant of those truths which are necessary for salvation. You are welcome.  
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #462 on: February 24, 2020, 05:02:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 23, 2020, 02:19:30 PM
    Wait, what? The person is "not invincibly ignorant" yet the text is about "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance..." ?
    That is correct, the pope never said that the person is invincibly ignorant.

    Your problem here is merely one of the problems that every single person that promotes salvation via no sacrament at all have in common, namely, they read the same truths we all read, but they read meanings into words which the words they read do not say, while they fail to advert to what the words do say.





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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #463 on: February 24, 2020, 06:17:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 24, 2020, 05:02:45 AM
    That is correct, the pope never said that the person is invincibly ignorant.

    Your problem here is merely one of the problems that every single person that promotes salvation via no sacrament at all have in common, namely, they read the same truths we all read, but they read meanings into words which the words they read do not say, while they fail to advert to what the words do say.
    Indeed. 
    If someone is struggling with "invincible ignorance" then there has to be some "invincible ignorance" to struggle with.
    If it can be overcome, it's not invincible ignorance, and the person is just struggling with ignorance.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #464 on: February 24, 2020, 07:23:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 24, 2020, 06:17:59 AM
    Indeed.
    If someone is struggling with "invincible ignorance" then there has to be some "invincible ignorance" to struggle with.
    If it can be overcome, it's not invincible ignorance, and the person is just struggling with ignorance.
    This idea ^^ is very confused.

    Those struggling with "invincible ignorance about our holy religion" are ignorant about our holy religion - but are seeking, putting forth effort in order to find out, to learn about our holy religion.

    It's not complicated. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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