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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15489 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #345 on: February 18, 2020, 06:47:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 17, 2020, 10:03:16 AM
    1) Theologians theorize for a living, they use to theorize among themselves in seminaries as professors and students, where they were given all kinds of leeway in their "ivory towers". However, in the late 1800's that changed and they started theorizing to the laity, to the masses, and today the theories are legion. Look at the theory of salvation of the Indians by belief in a god that rewards made possible by their invincible ignorance (=they could not be reached by man, priests did not even know they existed), so they say, the theory went nowhere for almost 300 years, no laity even heard of it,  till it was foisted upon the faithful in the early 20th century.

    2) I do not get the impression that dogmas meant the same to those theologians like it does to us today since Vatican I defined papal infallibility.
    I never considered your #1 but that sounds somewhat feasible. Yet there are some theologians who apparently believed in their own theories enough to pass them off as authentic teachings of the Church - and not only did no one say anything, instead, many of these theories were (and still are) accepted as though they are authentic or approved teachings of the Church, even by learned priests and other theologians.

    That's a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline donkath

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #346 on: February 18, 2020, 07:18:02 AM »
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    That's a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

    Indeed, it is a tough pill to swallow.  We have always relied on our priests to teach us true doctrine.  It is such a tough pill to swallow that it is like trusting the surgeon to know what he is doing when he operates only to find you are worse off after the operation.
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #347 on: February 18, 2020, 08:44:27 AM »
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    • Here was Fr. Hesse’s view on BOD (He agreed with St. Thomas Aquinas): 

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #348 on: February 18, 2020, 09:40:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: StLouisIX on February 18, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
    Here was Fr. Hesse’s view on BOD (He agreed with St. Thomas Aquinas):


    Around the 57 second mark he says that Trent says: "...Nobody can be saved unless he received the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit...the thing itself, or in the votum of doing it..."

    The problem with this is, this is not what Trent says.

    In all the translations I've ever seen, Trent quite clearly condemns with anathema anyone who says that without the sacrament or without the desire (votum) thereof, man cannot obtain the grace of justification.  

    After listening to dozens of his talks on the internet, this and one other thing I know of that he says regarding ignorance he has wrong. Other than those two things, from what I've listened to, he teaches orthodox Catholicism.

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #349 on: February 18, 2020, 09:46:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 17, 2020, 08:09:52 AM
    This is PRECISELY the emotional theology that inspired the Jesuits to invent "Rewarder God" theory. 
    But is it? Does God not provide all men what is necessary for salvation?

    If therefore, you think explicit faith in some doctrines is required, how is the person who lived in the wilderness provided what is necessary? Some of you appear to be saying something close to predestination to damnation.

    If that person in the wilderness cooperates with the graces God provides, we should hold that God would also provide some way to know the required doctrines, whether that be through internal revelation, or some miracle like a saint bilocating to the person.
    Quote from: Ladislaus on February 17, 2020, 09:22:22 AM
    #2 is Pelagianism, making salvation attainable ex opere operantis
    Is it pelagian for a person to cooperate with - or not place obstacles to - grace? "Sincerity in seeking the truth" is a grace.
    Quote from: Ladislaus on February 17, 2020, 09:22:22 AM
    #3 rejects 1500+ years of unquestioned unanimous Tradition, using a distinction that was explicitly condemned by the Holy Office in 1703
    Even granting the statement of the holy office (though EENSers ignore the Holy Office regarding Fr. Feeney), it doesn't have to use that distinction. Belief in God who rewards implicitly includes the will to do all that God requires, and so implicitly includes baptism. Baptism is still necessary by a necessity of means, in re aut voto.

    In the end, this is a mystery, and it makes no difference to someone who IS Catholic, and already baptized.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #350 on: February 18, 2020, 10:25:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 18, 2020, 09:46:30 AM
    But is it? Does God not provide all men what is necessary for salvation?

    If therefore, you think explicit faith in some doctrines is required, how is the person who lived in the wilderness provided what is necessary? Some of you appear to be saying something close to predestination to damnation.
    You have a flawed idea of God and predestination. In your world a man is born by chance and dies by chance in a place and time where God could not reach him. In my world a person is born and dies  in a place and time exactly as chosen by God, before he even created the world:


    Quote
    If a person was  truly just in the eyes of God, and thus one of the elect, he would have been born in a time and place where he could find everything he needs for his salvation. So, what is there to speculate about? The problem with the people who do not accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, is that they think that God has to invent some other way to save people because "His EENS system does not work for every case as it is written.".

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

    In other words even before the world was even created, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul. Nobody is born or dies in a time and place not chosen by God.
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    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #351 on: February 18, 2020, 12:59:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 18, 2020, 09:40:28 AM
    Around the 57 second mark he says that Trent says: "...Nobody can be saved unless he received the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit...the thing itself, or in the votum of doing it..."

    The problem with this is, this is not what Trent says.

    In all the translations I've ever seen, Trent quite clearly condemns with anathema anyone who says that without the sacrament or without the desire (votum) thereof, man cannot obtain the grace of justification.  

    After listening to dozens of his talks on the internet, this and one other thing I know of that he says regarding ignorance he has wrong. Other than those two things, from what I've listened to, he teaches orthodox Catholicism.

     
    Thanks for the correction, Stubborn. Could you provide the quotations that you’re referring to? I’m thinking about putting them to the video description to help clear up this misunderstanding to the viewers. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #352 on: February 18, 2020, 01:06:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: StLouisIX on February 18, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
    Thanks for the correction, Stubborn. Could you provide the quotations that you’re referring to? I’m thinking about putting them to the video description to help clear up this misunderstanding to the viewers.
    Sure, Session 7, Canon 4:

    If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #353 on: February 18, 2020, 01:45:17 PM »
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    If that person in the wilderness cooperates with the graces God provides,
    Maybe God put that person in the wilderness because He knew, from all eternity, that he would NOT cooperate with God's graces...
    .
    Just because you can create a hypothetical "virtuous native" doesn't mean they exist.  We know from history that REAL LIFE virtuous natives existed, which is why people like Eric the Red, Columbus and all the other Europeans travelled far distances to try to bring them the Faith.  We also know that when these explorers arrived in SOME (but not many) villages, they were surprised to find the natives having already been instructed in the Faith by miraculous means (i.e. bi-locating saints).  So, we know from history that God does work miracles, but He also does so through HUMAN means. 
    .
    We also know that God sent St Padre Pio, by way of bi-location, to hear confessions of dying men and also to baptize infants in danger of death.  God does not suspend the HUMAN ELEMENTS of the sacraments (i.e. water) but He will provide them miraculously (as when St Patrick raised a dead man to life to baptize him). 
    .
    BOD, which has never been proven scientifically, nor with any concrete examples, undercuts and minimizes the REAL LIFE MIRACLES that God has worked all throughout history.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #354 on: February 18, 2020, 02:08:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 18, 2020, 01:45:17 PM
    Maybe God put that person in the wilderness because He knew, from all eternity, that he would NOT cooperate with God's graces...
    Or perhaps God put that person in the wilderness because He knew, from all eternity, that in those circuмstances he would cooperate with grace, but had he been born surrounded by bad Catholics, he would have been led astray?

    And I mentioned bilocation of saints in my previous post.

    Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 18, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
    You have a flawed idea of God and predestination. In your world a man is born by chance and dies by chance in a place and time where God could not reach him. In my world a person is born and dies  in a place and time exactly as chosen by God, before he even created the world:
    Did I ever say a man is born in a place by chance?

    Your response appears to me to suggest predestination to damnation. Is that what you think? Perhaps your idea is flawed?

    Does or does not God provide all men what is necessary for salvation?

    Again, I think some of the posters here do not really see where BOD people are coming from. It's not "emotional" theology, but reason applied to Revelation.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #355 on: February 18, 2020, 02:27:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 18, 2020, 02:08:09 PM
    Or perhaps God put that person in the wilderness because He knew, from all eternity, that in those circuмstances he would cooperate with grace, but had he been born surrounded by bad Catholics, he would have been led astray?

    Point is that it's speculation, and that's not how Catholics do theology.  You can't go on "perhaps" this or "perhaps" that.  This is precisely the "vortex of confusion" St. Augustine warned about when he rejected Baptism of Desire.  Grace is grace, i.e. it's a perfectly free undeserved gift.  We are never in a position to know what graces someone should or should NOT receive, since absolutely none if it is owed to anyone.

    We merely go by:  God has revealed x, y, and z.  Church teaches that a, b, and c are compatible or incompatible with Revelation.  That's it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #356 on: February 18, 2020, 02:40:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 18, 2020, 02:08:09 PM

    Again, I think some of the posters here do not really see where BOD people are coming from. It's not "emotional" theology, but reason applied to Revelation.

    Nonsense.  There has never been a single demonstration by way of syllogism that Baptism of Desire is revealed by God.  2/3 of the small handful of Church Fathers who even mentioned the subject REJECTED it.  There's no proof that it's revealed.  Nor has anyone ever demonstrated that BoD derives from Church doctrine.

    St. Augustine and St. Gregory nαzιanzen admitted that BoD speculation originated in emotional considerations.  People saw various apparently devout catechumens who happened to die before Baptism, whereas other soundrels appeared to postpone Baptism precisely so that they could continue on in their sin and then got baptized on their deathbed.  This led to an emotional reaction of this being "unfair".  St. Augustine rejected this emotional theology as leading to a "vortex of confusion" and warned that anyone who "wish[es] to remain Catholic" must reject this thinking.

    St. Robert Bellarmine believed that catechumens (and catechumens only) could be saved by Desire.  Reason he gave?  Because the contrary "would seem too harsh."  That's it.

    There's no solid theology behind Baptism of Desire.  It's pure speculation, made up in response to various emotional considerations.  That's just simple fact.

    Let's take a couple posts back.  You're claiming that BoD derives from the assertion that God gives every person a chance at salvation.  Please construct a syllogism to prove your conclusion.

    How about the unbaptized infant who dies without Baptism?  Did God give that infant a "chance at salvation"?  Hmmm.  You have absolutely NO idea what God has given and what God has not given to any particular individual, whether born among the Native Americans in the year 500 or in a Catholic family in the year 1200.  None.  You absolutely cannot draw theological conclusions from your speculation about what God SHOULD provide based on your imaginary scenarios.

    Here's your implied syllogism:

    Major:  God gives every human being what is necessary for salvation.
    Minor:  If God does not allow BoD, then some souls would be deprived of what would be necessary for salvation.
    Conclusion:  BoD happens.

    Your Minor is nonsense and based on pure speculation.

    Your Major must be distinguished.  Did God give an unbaptized infant who dies at the age of 3 a chance at salvation?

    BTW, part of the CATHOLIC teaching of predestination holds that sometimes God will WITHHOLD graces because He knows that they will be rejected and would in fact lead to greater eternal suffering for the person they would have been offered to.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #357 on: February 18, 2020, 07:50:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 18, 2020, 02:40:39 PM
    There's no solid theology behind Baptism of Desire.  It's pure speculation, made up in response to various emotional considerations.  That's just simple fact.
    God wills the salvation of all men, and as a corollary, God grants all men sufficient grace for salvation, provided no obstacles on our part.

    Statements like these are found in most books on Catholic theology of grace and salvation. Are these "emotional considerations", or Catholic theological reflection on Revelation? Or both?

    You apparently think explicit faith in some doctrines is necessary. Well, God provides what is necessary for salvation as stated above. So if that person in the wilderness cooperates with the graces God provides, we should hold that God would also provide some way to know the required doctrines, whether that be through internal revelation or external teaching, including some miracle like a saint bilocating to the person.

    Would you disagree with that?

    Quote
    How about the unbaptized infant who dies without Baptism? 
    It's like you're giving the objections in the Summa and presenting them as arguments, ignoring the replies.

    You do know the answer to this one, right?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #358 on: February 19, 2020, 02:30:54 PM »
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    • I'll grant the unbaptized infant throws me for a bit of a loop.  Mind, not the unbaptized infant in a Christian land, I think it makes sense to some extent that a child below the age of reason would be dependent in some way on all things, including access to grace, on their parents.  That shows just how serious the sacraments are.

    But yeah... what about the child of a Native American in 1000 AD?  I will admit that kind of threw me for a loop.  I, and Stanley, would've argued that the Native American at least theoretically has some possibility of salvation (leaving aside whether or not any such people actually cooperate with the graces to attain it) but what about the children?

    And I mean that in light of the argumentation of Stanley above, not as a mere appeal to emotion
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #359 on: February 19, 2020, 04:05:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 18, 2020, 07:50:02 PM
    You apparently think explicit faith in some doctrines is necessary.

    What do you mean I think?  This is the unanimous teaching of the Church.  No one at the age of reason can have a merely infused faith.  Only dispute is whether it suffices to explicitly believe in God, that He rewards the good and punishes the wicked, or else whether someone must also explicitly believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.  This is not my personal opinion or something I made up.
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