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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 9481 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #300 on: February 16, 2020, 02:38:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 02:35:46 PM
    I don't think they're denying it, but I see your point.  I defer to the trad clergy on this TBH.  
    I meant from the Feeneyite perspective. Plenty on here have called positions far less liberal than what the SSPX and Resistance teach to be "denying EENS", yet they don't seem to be at all bothered by their shepherds denying it.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #301 on: February 16, 2020, 02:42:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 02:18:41 PM
    I actually think the 10 year old would indeed just be a material heretic, is Catholic, and would be saved, but I don't see how that reconciles with stuff other people are saying.  
    This is basically the pre-V2 notion of invincible ignorance.

    The common (pre-V2) belief is that after the use of reason, a person can only be in a state of grace or mortal sin. At the use of reason, the first moral act either follows the enlightenment of God to sanctifying grace, or is a mortal sin.

    A baptized protestant child, having the infused virtues, would seem more disposed to a virtuous act at the use of reason than an unbaptized child.

    But how likely do you think it would be for such a child to maintain the state of grace for several years without any further help from the sacraments (in the case of a protestant)?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #302 on: February 16, 2020, 02:45:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 16, 2020, 02:42:55 PM
    This is basically the pre-V2 notion of invincible ignorance.

    The common (pre-V2) belief is that after the use of reason, a person can only be in a state of grace or mortal sin. At the use of reason, the first moral act either follows the enlightenment of God to sanctifying grace, or is a mortal sin.

    A baptized protestant child, having the infused virtues, would seem more disposed to a virtuous act at the use of reason than an unbaptized child.

    But how likely do you think it would be for such a child to maintain the state of grace for several years without any further help from the sacraments (in the case of a protestant)?
    I don't think its particularly likely.  I'm not even *certain* it would ever happen, though I don't see how I could know that for sure either.

    A lot of people here think even the pre Vatican II concept of Invincible Ignorance contradicts EENS
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #303 on: February 16, 2020, 02:59:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 01:51:51 PM
    Since a new thread was made about the Eastern Catholic churches, I'm gonna remind people of what the OP was, since I don't think I've gotten a rational answer to it.

    Let's imagine for the sake of argument a 10 year old Protestant child.

    He has been baptized.  

    He "believes in Jesus", believes Jesus is God, believes Jesus died for his sins.

    He hasn't committed any mortal sins.  

    However, he believes that the Bible is the only thing that matters to Christianity, because that's what his parents told him.  he doesn't know anything about Catholicism.  His parents told him to just read the Bible and follow it.  So that's what he does.

    He dies.

    Where does he go?  

    I don't see how he can go to Limbo.  Limbo is for (some of) the unbaptized.  But he's been baptized.  He's been ontologically changed into a Christian.  So I don't see how he can go there.
    If this child at 10 years old has not yet reached the age of reason (there is no way for us to know with certainty) then he is not guilty of actual sin, and since he was baptized, he would go to heaven.

    OTOH, if he attained the use of reason before he died, then we have to say that he could not enter heaven because he died outside of the Church, this is dogma. I don't see how he could go to Limbo dying baptized and outside of the Church.

    We do not know even his degree of culpability, which, while we believe would be next to nothing, we really don't know. 





       
     
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #304 on: February 16, 2020, 03:12:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 16, 2020, 02:42:55 PM
    This is basically the pre-V2 notion of invincible ignorance.

    The common (pre-V2) belief is that after the use of reason, a person can only be in a state of grace or mortal sin. At the use of reason, the first moral act either follows the enlightenment of God to sanctifying grace, or is a mortal sin.
    I never really thought of it this way but from our perspective, this is true. After reaching the age of reason, one is either in the Church or outside of the Church. Certainly if God were to see that in time, this child would convert and enter the Church and end up dying a good Catholic, then He would not take him until this had been accomplished.

     
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #305 on: February 16, 2020, 03:19:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 16, 2020, 02:59:45 PM
    OTOH, if he attained the use of reason before he died, then we have to say that he could not enter heaven because he died outside of the Church, this is dogma.
    But there is a question of fact - did he die actually outside the Church?
    A baptized person can reconcile with the Church rather quickly. Or are you also ruling out an act of contrition?
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #306 on: February 16, 2020, 03:20:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 01:51:51 PM
    Let's imagine for the sake of argument a 10 year old Protestant child. He has been baptized. He "believes in Jesus", believes Jesus is God, believes Jesus died for his sins. He hasn't committed any mortal sins.
    ... CUT ...

    He dies Catholic and in communion.

    He is validly baptized (*) and, hence, he has entered the Catholic Church. Until he reaches the age of understanding (I am not certain what the English translation is) he cannot sin or commit heresy because to commit either one must understand them.

    (*) it is irrelevant who baptized the boy. Catholic, protestant or even atheist. With correct intention anyone can validly baptize.



    Quote from: forlorn on February 16, 2020, 02:34:41 PM
    ... CUT ... You'd think they'd be uncomfortable about the leader of their movement denying a Catholic dogma, even if done materially and in good faith.

    I don't think that those who believe in the EENS dogma follow a "leader" or a "movement". I can only speak for myself and I have merely reached a personal conviction. I do not even know about the "leaders" and "movements" that you cite.

    I just think that, when in doubt, better not be arrogant (me, not you) trying to interpret a dogma.

    Also, if strict EENS were not correct, then Vatican II would be correct as VII teaches a lax, open interpretation of EENS to include in the Church many who are, otherwise, not.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #307 on: February 16, 2020, 03:42:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 16, 2020, 03:19:40 PM
    But there is a question of fact - did he die actually outside the Church?

    He died inside the Catholic Church. The baptism was valid.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #308 on: February 16, 2020, 04:11:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 16, 2020, 03:19:40 PM
    But there is a question of fact - did he die actually outside the Church?
    A baptized person can reconcile with the Church rather quickly. Or are you also ruling out an act of contrition?
    Based on what Byz said: "he believes that the Bible is the only thing that matters to Christianity" is a belief that is not Catholic but rather Protestant, so based on his belief, he is Protestant and not Catholic, hence outside of the Church.

    Albeit for a different reason, I rule out an act of contrition the same as do those who think that due to his circuмstances, he has no need of an act of contrition. Although I believe he needs it, I believe he has no idea what it even is, or if he does, has no need of it because to him, the Bible is all that matters.

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #309 on: February 16, 2020, 04:54:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 01:51:51 PM
    Since a new thread was made about the Eastern Catholic churches, I'm gonna remind people of what the OP was, since I don't think I've gotten a rational answer to it.

    Let's imagine for the sake of argument a 10 year old Protestant child.

    He has been baptized.  

    He "believes in Jesus", believes Jesus is God, believes Jesus died for his sins.

    He hasn't committed any mortal sins.  

    However, he believes that the Bible is the only thing that matters to Christianity, because that's what his parents told him.  he doesn't know anything about Catholicism.  His parents told him to just read the Bible and follow it.  So that's what he does.

    He dies.

    Where does he go?  

    I don't see how he can go to Limbo.  Limbo is for (some of) the unbaptized.  But he's been baptized.  He's been ontologically changed into a Christian.  So I don't see how he can go there.

    I don't see how he could go to the fires of Hell, he hasn't committed any actual mortal sins, and we know per florence that to actually be damned to the fires of Hell you have to have committed a mortal sin.

    So it seems to me logically that he would go to heaven.  Not because he "deserves it" per se, but because, being baptized, being regenerated, he is a transformed creature, and thus without any mortal sins on his soul, he would ultimately attain the beatific vision (perhaps after some time in purgatory.)

    However, according to Ladislaus, and I think the other "feeneyites" (descriptor, not insult) I don't see how he could go to heaven.  While he's totally not culpable for this, he *doesn't* have the correct formal motive of faith.  He's trusting his own interpretation of the Bible for truth.  Not the Catholic Church.

    I could be missing some fine distinction here, I just don't know what he is.

    Note that my issue here is one of justice, not of emotion.  I'm not "emotionally bothered" by him ending up in Limbo, I just don't see how he could logically end up there.

    Now I realize this isn't an apology for any Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. being able to be saved, but again, *that's not the point of this thread*, this one is about the baptized who have incorrect formal motives of faith.

    If a person was  truly just in the eyes of God, and thus one of the elect, he would have been born in a time and place where he could find everything he needs for his salvation. So, what is there to speculate about? The problem with the people who do not accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, is that they think that God has to invent some other way to save people because "His EENS system does not work for every case as it is written.".

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

    In other words even before the world was even created, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul. Nobody is born or dies in a time and place not chosen by God.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #310 on: February 16, 2020, 05:01:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 16, 2020, 04:54:53 PM
    If a person was  truly just in the eyes of God, and thus one of the elect, he would have been born in a time and place where he could find everything he needs for his salvation. So, what is there to speculate about? The problem with the people who do not accept the dogmas on EENS as they are written, is that they think that God has to invent some other way to save people because "His EENS system does not work for every case as it is written.".

    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

    In other words even before the world was even created, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul. Nobody is born or dies in a time and place not chosen by God.
    This is true, but its not an answer to the question.  
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #311 on: February 16, 2020, 05:33:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 05:01:19 PM
    This is true, but its not an answer to the question.  
    What St. Augustine said is true, but you do not believe in Divine Providence either (just like you do not believe the dogmas on EENS as they are written) ,  and that disbelief is the  foundation of your question. If you believed in Divine Providence, you would not ask that question.

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    Questions posed to Fr. Feeney and his answers (almost 70 years ago):

    Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
    A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.
     
    Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
    A. No. They are not saved.
     
    Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?
    A. I do not know.
     
    Q. Do they go to Hell?
    A. No.
     
    Q. Do they go to Heaven?
    A. No.
     
    Q. Are there any such souls?
    A. I do not know! Neither do you!
     
    Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such souls?
    A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.



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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #312 on: February 16, 2020, 05:43:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 16, 2020, 01:51:51 PM
    However, according to Ladislaus, and I think the other "feeneyites" (descriptor, not insult) I don't see how he could go to heaven.  While he's totally not culpable for this, he *doesn't* have the correct formal motive of faith.  He's trusting his own interpretation of the Bible for truth.  Not the Catholic Church.

    I could be missing some fine distinction here, I just don't know what he is.

    Well, that's not 100% true ... about my position.  I have said it before that I consider it hypothetically possible that, say, the baptized 10-year-old Protestant boy, despite technically being at the age of reason, still has a very foggy, vague, and muddled view of things ... to the point that his heresy MIGHT be purely material.  I recall the state of my own mind at that time and realize that things were a bit foggy.  

    I've used this analogy before.  If a Catholic missionary found a savage in the jungle, and just instructed him regarding the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, baptized him, and he died, he would be Catholic.  Let's say a Prot minister did the same thing ... instructed him in the same core mysteries, baptized him, and he died.  In both cases, he dies in the same state, as a Catholic.  I believe that there are some people, especially, say, a 7- to 10- year-old, who might be in the same very primitive mindset where the supernatural virtue of faith hasn't yet been vitiated by formal heresy.  As one advances in age, this gets less and less likely.  I believe that the supernatural virtue of faith becomes gradually vitiated over time once someone reaches the age of reason.

    With that said, however, I agree with LastTrad that I believe God's providence would put His elect clearly and visibly inside the Church.  So there's some danger in Jesuit "casuistry" ... (i.e. "let's take the following case" theology).  If someone dies as a 10-year-old Protestant boy, then I consider it all but certain that he was lost.  So the type of speculation I engaged in above is useless.  For whatever reason, God allowed this soul to dies as that 10-year-old Protestant boy, likely because God knew that had he been in the Catholic Church, he would have been more culpable for wasting the gift of faith.  Nevertheless, it is clear that, say, a baptized 3-year-old Protestant boy dies a Catholic.  And I don't believe that there's some magic about being exactly 7 years old, so that at the strike of midnight on his 7th birthday, supernatural faith ceases.  7 is just a rule of thumb.  I swear that one of my kids reached the age of reason by 4 ... others, well, I'm still waiting for, at the age of 18 :-).  
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #313 on: February 16, 2020, 06:52:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 16, 2020, 05:43:56 PM
    Well, that's not 100% true ... about my position.  I have said it before that I consider it hypothetically possible that, say, the baptized 10-year-old Protestant boy, despite technically being at the age of reason, still has a very foggy, vague, and muddled view of things ... to the point that his heresy MIGHT be purely material.  I recall the state of my own mind at that time and realize that things were a bit foggy.  

    I've used this analogy before.  If a Catholic missionary found a savage in the jungle, and just instructed him regarding the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, baptized him, and he died, he would be Catholic.  Let's say a Prot minister did the same thing ... instructed him in the same core mysteries, baptized him, and he died.  In both cases, he dies in the same state, as a Catholic.  I believe that there are some people, especially, say, a 7- to 10- year-old, who might be in the same very primitive mindset where the supernatural virtue of faith hasn't yet been vitiated by formal heresy.  As one advances in age, this gets less and less likely.  I believe that the supernatural virtue of faith becomes gradually vitiated over time once someone reaches the age of reason.

    With that said, however, I agree with LastTrad that I believe God's providence would put His elect clearly and visibly inside the Church.  So there's some danger in Jesuit "casuistry" ... (i.e. "let's take the following case" theology).  If someone dies as a 10-year-old Protestant boy, then I consider it all but certain that he was lost.  So the type of speculation I engaged in above is useless.  For whatever reason, God allowed this soul to dies as that 10-year-old Protestant boy, likely because God knew that had he been in the Catholic Church, he would have been more culpable for wasting the gift of faith.  Nevertheless, it is clear that, say, a baptized 3-year-old Protestant boy dies a Catholic.  And I don't believe that there's some magic about being exactly 7 years old, so that at the strike of midnight on his 7th birthday, supernatural faith ceases.  7 is just a rule of thumb.  I swear that one of my kids reached the age of reason by 4 ... others, well, I'm still waiting for, at the age of 18 :-).  
    OK apologies for the confusion about your position.  Yeah I was trying to present a case where the person *is* able to reason, but still knows literally nothing but the Protestant rule of faith, yet isn't in any way culpable for this, or is guilty of any other mortal sins.  I actually don't think that's an unreasonable scenario especially for people in the 7-14 range
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #314 on: February 16, 2020, 06:58:05 PM »
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    • Quote
    I think the other "feeneyites" (descriptor, not insult)
    It's either ignorance or detraction to call one who believes in EENS as it is written a "Feeneyite". I do not think that you would want to be thought of as either (ignorant or a detractor). Call us literal EENSers or something along those lines. Not every SSPX chapel attending person is a "Lefebvrist", nor is every Latin mass attendee a "rigorist".  
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