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Author Topic: EENS for baptized Christians  (Read 15486 times)

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Offline Praeter

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Re: EENS for baptized Christians
« Reply #195 on: February 08, 2020, 05:28:47 PM »
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  • This is completely ignoring, not answering my simple question.

    The answer to your question is YES, as Trent teaches, it is "necessary for all who have fallen after baptism."

    Will you answer my question to you? Please accept that I have no interest whatsoever in debating the idea of a BOD itself, only if you see can the contradiction that it is to this dogma as decreed at Trent.

    Not so fast.  I want to make sure that you accept the infallible decree from the Council of Trent, as it is written.  Isn't that what the Feeneyite heretics always say they do?  They believe the dogmas as they are written? Here again is what the Council infallibly teaching is necessary for salvation:  

    CANON VI.--If any one denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law, or is necessary to salvation; or saith, that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe, is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema.

    Three questions:

    1) Do you agree that sacrament of confession is necessary to salvation, as the infallible decree teaches?  If not, you are anathema.

    2) Do you believe a person can be saved without sacramental confession (e.g., The Blessed Mother, baptized children who died before reaching the age of reason, etc.)?  

    3) If you answered yes to number two, I want to know "if you can see the contradiction that it is to the dogma as decreed at Trent"?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #196 on: February 09, 2020, 05:47:54 AM »
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  • Here's the state of the question on explicit and implicit faith in Christ, per 3 pre-Vatican II authorities, for our reflection. Note the careful wording in Msgr. Fenton, Fr. Mueller, St. Alphonsus etc, in order to allow for the view of justification through implicit faith, but final salvation coming only after explicit faith in Christ, which Cardinal De Lugo, whom St. Alphonsus highly respects, also defends at length. That the OT just in limbo were saved in this way is also a defensible view; through implicit faith before Christ, and arriving at explicit faith in Him after His Coming there, and thereafter immediately going to Heaven to experience the blessed vision of God face to face forevermore. Thus, it is defensible to say, persons can be justified by an act of contrition, and obtain perseverance after explicit faith.

    Fr. Sylvester Hunter, in Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (1895) writes: "112. The Catholic Doctrine.—In opposition to all 112] THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. 159 these, the doctrine of Catholic theology is that the body of public revealed doctrine has received no objective increase since the days of the Apostles. It is true, as St. Thomas remarks, (Summa Theol. 2. 2. q. I. a. 7. c.) that the whole of the Divine economy of salvation is in some sense contained in the two fundamental articles which have been revealed from the beginning, that God is, and is a rewarder of them that seek Him : the explicit belief in which truths is and always has been a necessary condition of salvation, according to the doctrine of St. Paul. (Hebrews xi. 6.) But the whole body of Christian doctrine could never have been discovered as contained in this primitive and, so to speak, elementary revelation, had not further revelations been vouchsafed ; and such revelations were given from time to time under the patriarchal dispensation, under the Mosaic Law, and during the life of Christ and His Apostles ; ...

    "Regarding the points on which explicit knowledge is required as the indispensable means of justification, this certainly extends to the belief that God exists and that He shows Himself the Rewarder of them that seek Him.  This amount of belief is declared by St. Paul to be essential, if any one will please God. (Hebrews 11:6). The Greek word Rewarder literally means the payer of wages: the seeking God is therefore the application to enter His service; and the absolute necessity of the knowledge specified will be readily understood, if anyone is to earn a reward.

    So far there is universal agreement, and in fact the necessity that we have stated is not open to doubt, for Pope Innocent XI condemned the assertion that explicit belief that God rewards is not necessary (prop. 22; Denz. 1039).  There is a controversy whether St. Paul, in the passage quoted, intended to mention all that is necessary, or whether explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is required. At one time, a few writers were found to maintain that this explicit belief not only is necessary, but always has been so: this is now held by no one but many followers of the Thomist school hold that it has been necessary since the revelation was brought by Christ, although under the Old Law it was not requisite. These found their opinion upon the language of Scripture, which frequently speaks of faith in Christ as the essential condition of salvation; and to believe in Christ means to believe that He is God and Man."

    Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR, citing St. Alphonsus and other authorities: "Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.”

    Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, writing during the reign of Pope Ven. Pius XII: "most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation"

    Edit: Ladislaus, note to you: I saw your post only after typing this. I will respond to you subsequently. God Bless.

    Xavier,

    Thanks for providing the quotes, particularly for the Sylvius quote in a prior post. 

    Fr. Hunter writes: 

    Quote
    At one time, a few writers were found to maintain that this explicit belief not only is necessary, but always has been so: this is now held by no one 

    I believe that view is defensible (though "now held by no one") and supported by Scripture: the most obvious example is Our Lord saying father Abraham, the father of those who believe, saw His day and was glad (John 8:56), and I believe almost every prophet and OT saint who wrote Scripture (e.g., Moses, David, Isaiah, Daniel, etc.) referred to Christ in their writings, so arguably had some explicit knowledge of Him, though God kept it under wraps from general consumption until the "fullness of time." 

    So I'm curious: are you aware of any Magisterial statements indicating that explicit belief in Christ was not required at some time prior to the explicit promulgation of the gospel by the apostles?

    Thanks,

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #197 on: February 09, 2020, 05:56:40 AM »
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  • After all, as Ladislaus has pointed out, the "theologians" were certainly morally unanimous (if not numerically unanimous) in adopting the view of St. Augustine regarding unbaptized infants suffering some mild punishment of actual torment or suffering in hell for centuries, yet the Magisterium never adopted that view and the theologians went against it and for a Limbo paradise of natural happiness for the same infants.

    I'm with Stubborn in being generally suspicious of theologian bandwagons . . . it is the Magisterium that speaks with the voice of God.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #198 on: February 09, 2020, 10:24:54 AM »
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  • Not so fast.  I want to make sure that you accept the infallible decree from the Council of Trent, as it is written.  Isn't that what the Feeneyite heretics always say they do?  They believe the dogmas as they are written? Here again is what the Council infallibly teaching is necessary for salvation:  

    CANON VI.--If any one denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law, or is necessary to salvation; or saith, that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe, is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema.

    Three questions:

    1) Do you agree that sacrament of confession is necessary to salvation, as the infallible decree teaches?  If not, you are anathema.

    2) Do you believe a person can be saved without sacramental confession (e.g., The Blessed Mother, baptized children who died before reaching the age of reason, etc.)?  

    3) If you answered yes to number two, I want to know "if you can see the contradiction that it is to the dogma as decreed at Trent"?
    I do not, and have not denied that sacramental confession is necessary to salvation, I gave you Trent's exact answer to your question - if you fail to understand it, then simply read Trent until it makes sense to you. Although I do understand your game because it is plain to see that you cannot answer my question without cutting your own throat, which is why you prefer to simply ignore my question and in the process, ignore your own contradiction. 
    FYI, Trent and all pre-V2 Council teachings are to be understood as decreed, per V1. Per V1, we are not even permitted to interpret them because to do so abandons the meaning of sacred dogma. Always remember that dogma is sacred, it is a sacred thing and changing it in any way is a desecration - which is why we may not interpret dogma.
    Starting with V2, one is forced to interpret the docuмents due to the purposely ambiguous language they used. So simply read Trent without interpretation and for what it teaches, do that and you will have no need of this silly exercise in futility.
    If this is the game you are going to play then we may as well end now, if however you choose to answer my question truthfully, then we can move onto the next and final step which will prove your contradiction, you will have no "out". 
    "From the institution of the sacrament of Penance as already explained, the universal Church has always understood, that the entire confession of sins was also instituted by the Lord, and is of divine right necessary for all who have fallen after baptism..."
    All you need to read is the words I underlined.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #199 on: February 09, 2020, 11:30:23 AM »
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  • After all, as Ladislaus has pointed out, the "theologians" were certainly morally unanimous (if not numerically unanimous) in adopting the view of St. Augustine regarding unbaptized infants suffering some mild punishment of actual torment or suffering in hell for centuries, yet the Magisterium never adopted that view and the theologians went against it and for a Limbo paradise of natural happiness for the same infants.

    I'm with Stubborn in being generally suspicious of theologian bandwagons . . . it is the Magisterium that speaks with the voice of God.  

    Theologians are not part of the Ecclesia Docens.  At best, they're a "reflection," as it were, of the Ecclesia Credens.  But ... even IF one attempted to argue that they're an extension of the Church's OUM, the OUM is infallible to the extent that the Church has taught something to be divinely revealed always and everywhere.  Among the Church Fathers, we have far more who reject BoD than who endorse it, and none of them teach it with any kind of authority, presenting it as something divinely revealed and part of the Deposit of Revelation.  Just because we have a small handful of theologians claiming that it's de fide, this does not make it so.


    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #200 on: February 09, 2020, 04:33:07 PM »
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  • Indeed, you have to have sincere contrition for and the intention to confess every mortal sin; in other words, you can't be deliberately hiding or holding back on any.

    Certainly, if there is such a thing as BoD, then I believe that an explicit intention would be necessary.  If you look at what Trent taught about Confession, initially the text read that perfect contrition sufficed to restore a soul to justification.  But the Pope, inspired by the Holy Spirit, intervened and insisted that the condition also of intending to confess the sin be added as necessary.  And that is what Trent taught infallibly.  Certainly the intention to confess could be read implicitly into perfect contrition.  I mean, if you're perfectly contrite, then you implicitly also would intend to make whatever act of reparation God requires, including Confession.  So this notion that the intention to confess would be implicit in perfect contrition was rejected by Trent for Confession.  So why should we imagine that an implicit intention could suffice for Baptism ... when Trent taught that it does NOT suffice for confession?  There's no reason to believe this, and it's a huge stretch.  So you raise a very important point that I had not completely thought through before.

    PS ... too many Traditional Catholics falsely believe that one need only have perfect contrition to be restored to a state of justification.  But Trent teaches that this does not suffice but must be combined with the intention to confess those sins as soon as it is reasonably possible.

    I've used this analogy before, for Baptism, but it also applies to Confession.  We have a man who loves a woman deeply, proposes (and she accepts), sets a date, rents out a hall, sends out invitations, and schedules everything with the priest.  But now, 5 minutes before the actual vows, he gets cold feet and bails out.  Despite ALL his intentions, he was never married.  So, with Confession also ... and Baptism.  I can be deeply sorry, but unless I intend (vow, even) to go to Confession, then I'm not really sorry and am not restored to a state of grace (per Trent).  And, so also with Baptism.  Even if one believes that Trent taught BoD, the word Trent uses is votum, which in Medieval Latin meant a solemn vow (like the ones pronounced at marriage or by a religious) ... and our word "vow" derives from this word as well.  There is no indication anywhere among the Church doctors or in the Magisterium that BoD can ever apply to anyone other than a catechumen.
    Reading this long thread and others where you and other members who reject BoD posted, I have reached my personal, and maybe erroneous, conviction that BoD cannot be a correct doctrine.

    If at all possible, then I would believe it possible only for a catechumen who dies before he can be baptized.

    Of course I also believe that God can save anyone but I do not believe that it is for man to interpret God's will.

    In today's Gospel, the owner of the vine, tells the labourers that he is free to pay whatever he wills to whomever. But in the same passage it is clearly underlined the importance for man to work for his pay.

    These are two Truths are only apparently in contradiction (*) and they reinforce two concepts:
    1. God can save anyone.
    2. Man must do the right thing regardless.

    (*) It is only an apparent contradiction that while God can save anyone, He still requires all to work for salvation.

    I interpret (2) to mean that man must "work" for his baptism; i.e. he must have the explicit intention to be baptized. This, for me, excludes the "implicit" BoD interpretation.

    Thank you for helping me reach my conviction. For me this doctrine is at the very core of why I believe the reform to be an error because I believe in veritas ante caritas. If we concede that the doctrine of BoD is correct, then we must also agree that charity comes before Truth. V2 would then be correct and simply outline the truth. We would then be in error, if we reject V2. If the BoD doctrine is correct, then God's Church must includes all religions and even atheism and there would be no point to be Catholic or otherwise.

    Regardless, I do believe that all interlocutors in this conversation have proven their genuine search for Truth without negligence and, therefore, I hope that God will forgive those of us who are on the wrong in this debate.

    God bless all for helping me understand this complex doctrine.
    Tommaso
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #201 on: February 09, 2020, 05:04:22 PM »
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  • Reading this long thread and others where you and other members who reject BoD posted, I have reached my personal, and maybe erroneous, conviction that BoD cannot be a correct doctrine.

    If at all possible, then I would believe it possible only for a catechumen who dies before he can be baptized.

    Of course I also believe that God can save anyone but I do not believe that it is for man to interpret God's will.

    Yes, this is my position also.  Do I hold with the certainty of faith that God has never allowed someone to be saved by a Baptism of Desire?  No.  I simply hold that, if He does, He has not revealed it.  If, after I die, I find that some catechumen has been saved in this manner, then glory be to God.

    In the meantime, this speculative theory only causes harm.  It erodes people's believe in the necessity of Baptism.  As Father Feeney put it, believing in Baptism of Desire actually would undermine one's ability to achieve this state, since instead of ardently desiring the Sacrament (which would be required), one becomes complacent that one might attain justification without the actual Sacrament.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #202 on: February 09, 2020, 05:20:38 PM »
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  • Thank you for helping me reach my conviction. For me this doctrine is at the very core of why I believe the reform to be an error because I believe in veritas ante caritas. If we concede that the doctrine of BoD is correct, then we must also agree that charity comes before Truth. V2 would then be correct and simply outline the truth. We would then be in error, if we reject V2. If the BoD doctrine is correct, then God's Church must includes all religions and even atheism and there would be no point to be Catholic or otherwise.

    Yes, again, we must be careful to distinguish between a Thomistic Baptism of Desire, applied to a catechumenm and the extended BoD.  As even Karl Rahner wrote, those few Fathers who entertained the notion limited it to the catechumen, but for them the catechumen was already a part of the visible Church.  In the early days, catechumens became such through a formal ceremony in which they were signed with the sign of the cross and allowed to be called "Christianus."  That's why St. Robert Bellarmine considered them to be "in the vestibule" of the Church, basically, having one foot in the door, with one foot outside.  One could describe them as imperfect or incomplete members of the Church by virtue of their visible adherence to the Church through their profession of faith.

    Where the bigger problem lies is with the extension of BoD to all manner of non-Catholics and infidels.  If these can be saved then, since there's no salvation outside the Church, we must hold that non-Catholics and infidels can be inside the Church.  This is in fact Vatican II ecclesiology in a nutshell.  If someone were to convince me that this is Catholic doctrine, then I immediately withdraw any objections I ever had to Vatican II.  Vatican II is doing nothing more than elaborating the ecclesiology and soteriology that derive from this extended BoD.  But I see the fruits of this doctrine, and the fruits of Vatican II, a widescale massive RELIGIOUS INDIFFERENTISM.  This cannot be of God or the Holy Ghost, and therefore this is why ... to me ... this EXTENDED BOD doctrine cannot be true.

    Now, if someone wanted to hold the BoD of St. Thomas or St. Robert Bellarmine, who am I to reject that as non-Catholic?  Besides, as I have mentioned, it is not intrinsically inimical with EENS and Tridentine ecclesiology.  I vehemently disagree with the Dimonds, for instance, who consider ANY form of BoD to be heretical.  Praeter here actually made the argument that I have elaborated upon before.  Trent also teaches that the Sacrament of Confession is necessary for salvation (for those who had lost their original state of grace), but clearly states that reception of the Sacrament in voto suffices, and this does not undermine the necessity.  So the argument that Trent teaches that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation doesn't necessarily hold.  I don't believe in BoD.  I do not believe that God would allow any of His elect to die without the Sacrament (as St. Augustine teaches in his later days).  But I do not denounce it as heretical either.  What I call heretical is the notion that those outside the Church can be saved.

    Recall the de Lugo citation posted by XavierSem.  It CONTRADICTS almost word for word the teaching of the Council of Florence.  How can there be any legitimate "development" of Catholic doctrine (I use the term in a Catholic and not Modernist sense) where it's suddenly OK to verbatim contradict a previous dogmatic definition ... by applying some "distinction".  As valuable a tool as distinctions can be, they can also be badly misused by heretics seeking to undermine Catholic dogma.  When you can apply a "distinction" to pretend that a dogma REALLY MEANS THE OPPOSITE of what it actually says, then the Modernists have won.


    Offline donkath

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #203 on: February 09, 2020, 10:08:35 PM »
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  • Quote
    Trent also teaches that the Sacrament of Confession is necessary for salvation (for those who had lost their original state of grace), but clearly states that reception of the Sacrament in votosuffices, and this does not undermine the necessity.
    Well made point!  If I commit a mortal sin the fear of going immediately to hell if not confessed would drive me crazy. To be offered the grace of being forgiven until I go to Confession is given conditionally.   It is not sufficient in itself to remove the sin from my soul.  If I subsequently distort the intention for which the grace was given and decide that it is sufficient in itself to remove the stain I would surely be in a state of sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next.  My second state would be worse than my first.

    And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.(Matt. 12: 32)
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #204 on: February 10, 2020, 04:34:03 AM »
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  • In today's Gospel, the owner of the vine, tells the labourers that he is free to pay whatever he wills to whomever. But in the same passage it is clearly underlined the importance for man to work for his pay.

    These are two Truths are only apparently in contradiction (*) and they reinforce two concepts:
    1. God can save anyone.
    2. Man must do the right thing regardless.

    (*) It is only an apparent contradiction that while God can save anyone, He still requires all to work for salvation.

    I interpret (2) to mean that man must "work" for his baptism; i.e. he must have the explicit intention to be baptized. This, for me, excludes the "implicit" BoD interpretation.
    I think that #1 is better stated to say that God saves all who are saved. He invites all into His Vineyard, which is the Church. All those who choose to enter into it and labor, will receive their reward as your #2 says. Whereas through a BOD, man saves himself.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #205 on: February 10, 2020, 04:36:40 AM »
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  • In the meantime, this speculative theory only causes harm. It erodes people's believe in the necessity of Baptism.  As Father Feeney put it, believing in Baptism of Desire actually would undermine one's ability to achieve this state, since instead of ardently desiring the Sacrament (which would be required), one becomes complacent that one might attain justification without the actual Sacrament.

    Not only, it also causes harm to who is on his journey back into the Catholic Church.

    If a reformist Catholic becomes aware of the conflict between reformist Catholics and Catholics, and discovers that some of the most preeminent areas of contention are ecuмenism and kingship, then BoD becomes a critical doctrine.

    If Catholics concede to the doctrine of BoD, logically, this doctrine can be used as a powerful tool for reformist Catholics to argue that, then, the VII reforms are only expressions of a Catholic truth and VII only consolidates accepted Catholic doctrine. VII becomes a mere pastoral consequence of a theological truth.

    To those like me who are walking home, this doctrine is really critical.

    If accepted it instills doubt in our hearts and can make us waiver... I did. I asked God to enlighten me while I was walking to receive Holy Eucharist this Sunday and, I faltered. I faltered because I had been reading this thread and I feared that I was believing an error that placed me in a state of sin and, therefore, I could not communicate myself.

    If Catholics concede ground in one of the principal areas of contention between Catholics and Reformist Catholics, then shy faithful who are doubtful and hesitant may draw the wrong conclusion that all this crisis is merely a lot of fuss about nothing: why would ecuмenism and diluted kingship be a problem, if BoD were to be a true doctrine? Ecuмenism and diluted kingship are a mere, tangible, expression of BoD.



    ... CUT ...
    we must hold that non-Catholics and infidels can be inside the Church.  This is in fact Vatican II ecclesiology in a nutshell.  
    ... CUT ...
    But I see the fruits of this doctrine, and the fruits of Vatican II, a widescale massive RELIGIOUS INDIFFERENTISM.

    I agree. I was completely indifferent to doctrines, precepts, etc..

    I am but a student and my knowledge of Catholic doctrine is weak and this is because I believed that I could and would be saved anyway even if I did not bother to adhere to Catholic precepts and doctrine. All I needed for salvation was true intent to love God, and all these petty, material, visible requirements of the Church were unnecessary. God did not need the bureaucracy and formalities of the Church because, in reality, God was only in my heart = BoD.

    I was convinced that God would save me anyway as long as I worshiped him, and even if I worshipped him in my own way rather than how the Church taught. These anthropocentric teachings deny God's kingship and teach caritas before veritas. I remember, distinctly, a priest teaching from the pulpit that veritas before caritas hurts God. I remember being taught that God loves me even if I don't (True) and will save me even if I'm not a practicing Catholic (false). First of all there is no such thing as a practicing and non practicing Catholic but also a practicing Catholic may be damned if he dies in a state of mortal sin even if he is a perfectly good person but denies that, for example, Jesus is God, as a jew or muslim would.

    In short, I was truly convinced that salvation did not require adhering to precepts and doctrines but merely required me to be a good person with honest love of God = BoD.

    This is why I contend that denouncing BoD as false, especially to reformist Catholics, is crucial to the Catholic cause.




    I think that #1 is better stated to say that God saves all who are saved. He invites all into His Vineyard, which is the Church. All those who choose to enter into it and labor, will receive their reward as your #2 says. Whereas through a BOD, man saves himself.

    I agree that it is more accurate to say that God can save anyone, by bringing anyone into his vineyard. Thank you for correcting me. I need help to walk home along the right path.
    Tommaso
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #206 on: February 10, 2020, 04:55:54 AM »
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  • I wonder what Claudel thinks of BoD...
    Tommaso
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #207 on: February 10, 2020, 09:57:21 AM »
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  • I do not, and have not denied that sacramental confession is necessary to salvation, I gave you Trent's exact answer to your question - if you fail to understand it, then simply read Trent until it makes sense to you. Although I do understand your game because it is plain to see that you cannot answer my question without cutting your own throat, which is why you prefer to simply ignore my question and in the process, ignore your own contradiction.  
    FYI, Trent and all pre-V2 Council teachings are to be understood as decreed, per V1. Per V1, we are not even permitted to interpret them because to do so abandons the meaning of sacred dogma. Always remember that dogma is sacred, it is a sacred thing and changing it in any way is a desecration - which is why we may not interpret dogma.
    Starting with V2, one is forced to interpret the docuмents due to the purposely ambiguous language they used. So simply read Trent without interpretation and for what it teaches, do that and you will have no need of this silly exercise in futility.
    If this is the game you are going to play then we may as well end now, if however you choose to answer my question truthfully, then we can move onto the next and final step which will prove your contradiction, you will have no "out".  
    "From the institution of the sacrament of Penance as already explained, the universal Church has always understood, that the entire confession of sins was also instituted by the Lord, and is of divine right necessary for all who have fallen after baptism..."
    All you need to read is the words I underlined.

    You just committing the alleged crime of interpreting the dogmatic decree (as if everything that is written doesn't require interpretation).  It clearly states that "anyone who denies that sacramental confession ... is necessary to salvation ... is anathema." You say you believe it in one breath, and the contradict yourself in the next by saying a person can be saved without sacramental confession.

    According to your own reasoning you are anathema, since you are guilty of "interpreting" the dogmatic decree in light of what the Council says elsewhere.  

    I'm curious, what other teaching from the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of Pius X do you and the other Feeneyite heretics reject?  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #208 on: February 10, 2020, 10:08:21 AM »
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  • You just committing the alleged crime of interpreting the dogmatic decree (as if everything that is written doesn't require interpretation).  It clearly states that "anyone who denies that sacramental confession ... is necessary to salvation ... is anathema." You say you believe it in one breath, and the contradict yourself in the next by saying a person can be saved without sacramental confession.

    As I wrote before, the Sacrament of Confession is indeed necessary (for those who have fallen after Baptism), but the fact that it can be received in voto does not diminish or undermine its necessity.  So, for instance, one cannot be justified by perfect contrition alone, but must also intend to confess the sins.   I agree that the fact that Trent teaches that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary does not rule out the possibility of its being received in voto.  It doesn't prove that it CAN, but it also doesn't prove that it cannot.  I agree that this is a bad argument, and it's usually employed not by "Feeneyites" but, rather by Dimondites.  But I agree with you that it's inconclusive regarding the BoD issue.

    You'll note that after Trent's definition regarding the necessity of the Sacrament, the theologians were very careful to avoid saying that one can be saved "without" the Sacrament of Baptism, since that would in fact be objectively heretical.  What they did was to say that people could potentially receive the Sacrament in voto (vs. in re).  It's EXTREMELY important that people never have the temerity to contradict dogmatic definitions.  So saying things like, "it is possible to be saved without the Sacrament," or phrases like "Baptism of Desire can be a substitute for Baptism."   bzzzt ... those are heretical formulations.  One should merely say that the Sacrament of Baptism can be received in voto, where the Sacrament remains the instrumental cause of justification operating through the votum.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS for baptized Christians
    « Reply #209 on: February 10, 2020, 10:09:26 AM »
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  • You just committing the alleged crime of interpreting the dogmatic decree (as if everything that is written doesn't require interpretation).  It clearly states that "anyone who denies that sacramental confession ... is necessary to salvation ... is anathema." You say you believe it in one breath, and the contradict yourself in the next by saying a person can be saved without sacramental confession.
     
    According to your own reasoning you are anathema, since you are guilty of "interpreting" the dogmatic decree in light of what the Council says elsewhere.  
     
    I'm curious, what other teaching from the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of Pius XII do you and the other Feeneyite heretics reject?  
    Obviously you are not understanding what you read is all, because all I did was copy and paste a direct quote from the Council of Trent in answer to your question, so what you are actually saying is that Trent contradicts itself. Let that sink in.

    And as expected, you still have not answered my question - which is a bit sad, but no surprise I guess.







    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse