nadie, may I suggest you MOVE ON from the BOD issue? It is an issue that has been discussed many times on this forum and it gets quite old. I get the feeling that BOD is all you really want to talk about on this forum.  

This is not the only subject that I really want to discuss. I have posted many threads already, and it just so happens that this is the only one asking me questions. Is there something wrong with discussing and debating a Catholic subject of such importance?

As long as people ask questions and debate, what am I expected to do, ignore them?

If you are a moderator, and don't want this subject discussed on this forum, let me know directly.  

Quote from: gunfighter

[How would the person know the state of their relatives soul at death?  Are you claiming that they have the gift of reading a persons soul like the Cure d'Ars?

This cannot be argued with as it is only through divine Revelation that we know who is and who is not in heaven.

If this statement is true, then you must acknowledge BOD.  Otherwise, we would know that anyone that has not been baptized with water is in hell.

Gunfighter wrote : It would not be judging, if you qualified your statement with something to the effect: "in all probability."  

Nadie responds: This is correct. However, saying "in all probability",  is weak, it does not teach anything to the non-Catholic hearer. It is not what the Holy Office under Pius X instructed us to say.  

Gunfighter wrote :It would also be appropriate to say that if a person dies as a infidel, they will be damned.  

Nadie responds: This is what the Holy Office under Pius X instructed/ordered us to do. This teaches the hearer that if they  do not convert they will with out a doubt go to Hell, for they would then fall "under the group" of non-Catholics who without a doubt are going to Hell.

Gunfighter wrote :You cannot say Mr. X died as a infidel, because you do not have the ability to read a man's soul.

Why should a Catholic have to even bring up this qualifier? All it does is open the door to speculations, and doubts? The Catholic only needs to say if a person dies as a infidel, they will be damned.  If a practicing traditional Catholic, who confessed before died, and received extreme unction, knowingly witheld confessing a mortal sin, he died with ONE mortal sin on his soul, he will go to hell. That's all that should be said. It teaches something. Excuses do not teach anything but doubt, ways out, or time to delay conversion.

Prof. David Allen White, in a radio program (Hugh Hewitt Show) debate with the atheist Christopher Hitchins, the author of the book "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" , was asked, if Hitchens dies an athiest will he go to hell?  White answered, the Church does not judge such things.

That cowardly copout by Prof. David Allen White, taught everyone that one does not need to be a Catholic. It was a horrible answer that affected millions of listeners forever. The Holy Office under Pius X did not teach that. He should have said: All who die as athiests go to hell. Anyone that answers that question the same cowardly evasive way, like Cupertino wrote below, is not teaching anyone anything but that no one need to be a Catholic to be saved.
 

Cupertino: The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation

By the way, I'm still awaiting for Cupertino or all the others who say the same thing "The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation", to show me where the Church teaches that from tradition. I posted what the Church teaches us to say, in the answer from the Holy Office under Pius X.


Salvation, even for Catholics is not easy:

"It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,997 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved". (Anthony Mary Claret )

I have made every effort to answer all questions with clear quotes from Church authorities; some dogmatic, some from the Universal Ordinary Magisterium, some from the Fathers of the Church, Saints, and Doctors. Below are all my authorites quotes that I posted on this thread in answering questions posed to me. They are posted below in the order that I had posted them as the thread went along.

Now, let me post all the authoritative sources quoted by those who defend BOD, those that do not believe in EENS as it is written,  in this discussion:

One quote from Sta. Thomas. That's it! The rest of ALL that was written by my adversaries were their own personal opinions with no sources for their opinions. And this is a LONG thread! ONLY ONE AUTHORATATVE QOUTE!

Despite my continually pleas for people not to give their personal opinions, and my requests that they post authoriative quotes, no sources were ever posted. Why? There amy be many answers:
Because my adversaries do not know how to determine truth, because they do not know the faith, because they are lazy, because they are  likely "One eyed men who live in a country of blind men"?  

"In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king."

Bottom Line is that they do not determine truth as Catholics (from authoritative sources), but from personal opinions LIKE PROTESTANTS. BY their deeds you shall know them.
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Catechism of the Council of Trent p. 179:
“On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time.  The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.”

Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction XXXVI: “Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.” (Fathers John A. McHugh, O.P. and Charles J. Callan, O.P. wrote the introduction for a common English translation of the Catechism of the Council of Trent)

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

When God's mercies have reached their end He punishes, and pardons no more. God is merciful; but, as great as His mercy is, how many people He sends to Hell every day! God is merciful but He is also just; and He is therefore obliged to punish those who offend Him. When sins reach a certain number, God pardons no more. St. Basil, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, and other Fathers teach that, according to the words of Scripture: "Thou hast ordered all things in measure and number and weight" (Wisdom 11: 2 1), God has fixed for each person the number of sins He will pardon; and when this number is completed, He will pardon no more. God does bear with us, but not forever. When the time comes for vengeance, He punishes. How many God has sent to Hell for the first offense! St. Gregory relates that a child five years old was seized by the devil for having uttered a blasphemy and carried into Hell. Another of eight, after his first sin, died and was lost. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori


How many souls have been damned for a single mortal sin!  St. Ignatius of Loyola

Faith is a gift from God. And let no one have any doubt whatsoever that, while this gift is given to some, to others it is not given. Why it is not given to everyone ought not disturb the faithful; even if no one were delivered, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God!  
St. Augustine

"The affair of the slave Augustina, who served in the house of Captain Vincente de Villalobos, was one of the strangest in the life of Claver...When Augustina was in her last agony Villalobos went in search of Claver. When the latter arrived the body was already being prepared for the shroud and he found it cold to the touch. His expression suddenly changed and he amazed everyone by crying aloud, "Augustina, Augustina." He sprinkled her with holy water, he knelt by her, and prayed for an hour. Suddenly the supposedly dead woman began to move...All fell on their knees. Augustina stared at Claver, and as if awakening from a deep sleep said, "Jesus, Jesus, how tired I am!" Claver told her to pray with all her heart and repent her sins, but those standing by, moved by curiosity, begged him to ask her where she came from. He did so, and she said these words: "I am come from journeying along a long road. It was a beautiful road, and after I had gone a long way down it I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said, 'Stop, you cannot go further.' I asked him what I should do, and he replied, 'Go back the way you have come, to the house you have left.' This I have done, but I cannot tell how." On hearing this Claver told them all to leave the room and leave him alone with her because he wished to hear her confession. He prepared her and told her that complete confession of her sins was of immense importance if she wanted to enter that paradise of which she had had a glimpse. She obeyed him, and as he heard her confession it became clear to Claver that she was not baptized. He straightway ordered water to be brought, and a candle and a crucifix. Her owners answered that they had had Augustina in their house for twenty years and that she behaved in all things like themselves. She had gone to confession, to Mass, and performed all her Christian duties, and therefore she did not need Baptism, nor could she receive it. But Claver was certain that they were wrong and insisted, baptizing her in the presence of all, to the great delight of her soul and his, for a few minutes after she had received the sacraments she died in the presence of the whole family."  ( Peter Claver: Saint of the Slaves, Fr. Angel Valltiera, S.J., Burns and Oates, London, 1960, pp. 221,222. )

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to
be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver
of regeneration [water baptism] and profess the true faith.”

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 27), June 29, 1943: “He (Christ) also determined that through Baptism (cf. Jn. 3:5) those who should believe would be
incorporated in the Body of the Church.”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate
them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this
consecration.”

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
On Baptism

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

CANON 2.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

Session VII (March 3, 1547)
Canons on the Sacraments in General
Canon IV. If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification; though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
 
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, Sess. III, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: “Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio,
“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
“In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”

Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb.25, 1570: “The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him [Jesus Christ], unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema.”

Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.”

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”

Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”

Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 ;
Proposition 16: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned

Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: “Christ is man’s ‘Way’; the Church also is his ‘Way’… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain.”

Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”

Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society.  Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”

When God's mercies have reached their end He punishes, and pardons no more. God is merciful; but, as great as His mercy is, how many people He sends to Hell every day! God is merciful but He is also just; and He is therefore obliged to punish those who offend Him. When sins reach a certain number, God pardons no more. St. Basil, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, and other Fathers teach that, according to the words of Scripture: "Thou hast ordered all things in measure and number and weight" (Wisdom 11: 2 1), God has fixed for each person the number of sins He will pardon; and when this number is completed, He will pardon no more. God does bear with us, but not forever. When the time comes for vengeance, He punishes. How many God has sent to Hell for the first offense! St. Gregory relates that a child five years old was seized by the devil for having uttered a blasphemy and carried into Hell. Another of eight, after his first sin, died and was lost. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori


How many souls have been damned for a single mortal sin!  St. Ignatius of Loyola

Faith is a gift from God. And let no one have any doubt whatsoever that, while this gift is given to some, to others it is not given. Why it is not given to everyone ought not disturb the faithful; even if no one were delivered, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God! (St. Augustine)
----------------------
Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.

Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved.

Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification, but have not received Baptism of Water?
A. I do not know.

Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.

Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.

Q. Are there any such souls?  
A. I do not know, do you?

Q. What are we to say to those who believe there ate such souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.

Bread of Life, (1952) by Fr. Leonard Feeney, pg 137
--------------------

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

-----------------------------------------
THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF THE CHURCH UPON THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.

1) Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost for ever. (St. John Neuman)

2) It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)

3) The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)

4) Those who are saved are in the minority. ( St. Thomas Aquinas)

5) The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

6) So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)

7) Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

8) Death bed conversions/repentance-there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)

9) The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:

a) The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few  -  not as many as ten  -   went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)

b) There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

c) The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.
( Pope St. Gregory the Great)

d) Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)

10) MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:

a) I do not speak rashly, but how I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)

b) Most priest are lost and few bishops are saved, not because of what they do, so much as what they fail to do. (St. John Chrysotom)

c) Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)



11) CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

12) How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom - the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of things life.)

13) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,997 went to Hell! )

14) In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

15) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

16) He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

17) THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:

a) When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

d) No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)

18) OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:

a) No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)

b) O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jews who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
---------------
From: The New Catholic Dictionary

Providence
(Latin: providere, to foresee, provide)

Adapting means to an end, God in His Wisdom ordering every event so that the purpose of creation may be realized, and, in particular providing for every human being the means of working out his destiny and of serving and glorifying his Creator, Ruler, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Saint John Damascene calls it: "The will of God by which all things are ruled by right reason." It leaves no room for chance or for fate. It is the personal act of God in regard to man. It is the expression of His relation to us as Father. "For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things." (Matthew 6) It is our reason and motive for prayer, as taught by Christ in the "Our Father." It is God's hand leading us on, invisible especially in moments of trial and darkness, but visible, as Cardinal Newman says in Parochial Sermons I, when we can look back and account for the happenings that have influenced our lives and enabled us to go on in God's service. In volume V he says it is nearly the only doctrine held with real assent [approval] by the mass of religious Englishmen, which seems to be true generally of Christians who are not members of the Church Christ founded.
--------------------
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess.14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: “But in fact this sacrament [Penance] is seen to differ in many respects from baptism. For, apart from the fact that the matter and form, by which the essence of a sacrament is constituted, are totally distinct, there is certainly no doubt that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, since the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism. For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12), says the Apostle. It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made ‘members of his own body’ (1 Cor. 12:13).”

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov.
22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to
the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the
sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of
the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe
through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and
the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the
kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is
real and natural water.”

----------------
St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church taught....[/color][/url]

CHAPTER II.

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.
1. With regard to its necessity, it should be known that Baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary of all the sacraments.
Without Baptism no one can enter heaven.
Unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  It is also the most necessary, inasmuch as no one is capable of receiving any other sacrament if he has not previously received Baptism. Hence, Baptism is called the gate of all the sacraments.
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“A certain statement in the funeral oration of St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II has been brought forward as a proof that the Church offered sacrifices and prayers for catechumens who died before baptism.  There is not a vestige of such a custom to be found anywhere… The practice of the Church is more correctly shown in the canon (xvii) of the Second Council of Braga (572 AD):  ‘Neither the commemoration of Sacrifice [oblationis] nor the service of chanting [psallendi] is to be employed for catechumens who have died without baptism.’” (The Catholic Encyclopedia-1907)

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832, on no salvation outside the Church: “Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma.  Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none." (Saint Francis Xavier)

 The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible
extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: “ Leo XIII, Encyclical, “Divinum illud,” [expressed it] in these words: ‘Let it suffice to
state this, that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, the Holy Spirit is her
soul.’”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516: “… the mystical
body, the Church (corpore mystico)…”Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 8), May 26, 1910: “… the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ…”Pope Leo XII, Quod Hoc Ineunte (# 1), May 24, 1824: “… His mystical Body.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it
follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden
and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly
impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that
man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of
both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate
union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something
dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

Pope Eugene IV, in his Bull Cantate Domino, defined that the unity of the
ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that no one can be saved outside of it, even if he sheds his blood in the name of Christ. This destroys the idea that one canbe saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church without belonging to its Body.

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since
the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical
body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were
foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made
up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad:
whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no
member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its
head.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and nonexempt,
belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at
all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is
fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same
will…”

Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi (# 3), Dec. 12, 1769: “One is the body of
the Church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it.”
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Quote from: nadieimportante

By the way, I'm still awaiting for Cupertino or all the others who say the same thing "The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation", to show me where the Church teaches that from tradition. I posted what the Church teaches us to say, in the answer from the Holy Office under Pius X.

This was way back on page 23:

For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

http://geocities.ws/caleb1x/docuмents/singulariquadam.html

I saw that quote from you before Pax, and I thought that you were posting it to show that BOD and all it's mutants, should not be taught because "it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved", and that "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry".

If you are saying the "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry", means that "The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation", that is a long stretch.

Let me add that that speech by Pius IX did exactly what I warned about before, that cowardly qualifiers like this spread the idea that ANYONE can be saved outside of the Church. It is huge slip of the tongue by Pius IX. However, since Singulari Quadem, is just an allocution (a speech to the cardinals), it is fallible.
It can't change the dogmas that absolutely no one can be saved even if the shed their blood for Christ. The theory of invincible ignorance is from the 1600's, and never got anywhere, and was resuscitated by the liberals in the late 1800's after this quote by Pius IX. It is not part of tradition, and is rejected by the Fathers, St. Thomas, St. Aphonsus Ligouri.

Quote from: pax

This was way back on page 23:

For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

http://geocities.ws/caleb1x/docuмents/singulariquadam.html

I saw that quote from you before Pax, and I thought that you were posting it to show that BOD and all it's mutants, should not be taught because "it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved", and that "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry".

You need to read the entire quote before you add elipses to it