Author Topic: Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD? (Read 21117 times)

gunfighter · « **Reply #240 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:05:46 PM »

Quote from: pax

Quote from: gunfighter
Quote from: pax
Quote from: gunfighter
the remnant of the Church that exists

Only those who are subject to the Roman Pontiff can be in the Church.

11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls?

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

You are indeed entangled in the errors of Photius, who was the first to denounce the Pope (Nicholas I) as a heretic.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12043b.htm

And you are entangled in the errors of the Reformers, who were not the first to declare the Pope the Antichrist.

Yes, I accept the canonizations of JP2.

I am subject to a valid Pope.

I am afraid to ask who.

No reason to fear. I hold to the sedeprivationism theory.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #241 on:** December 03, 2011, 03:54:11 PM »

Quote

Cupertino wrote: The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation.

Quote

Gunfighter wrote: Regardless of how BOD works, I would never say someone(except Judas) is definitely in hell.

Catholics when interrogated, must answer that the Church preaches that all those who die outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and without a doubt shall perish into the everlasting fire.
................................................................................

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #242 on:** December 03, 2011, 04:14:58 PM »

Quote from: gunfighter

Nadie,

With all due respect, you have stated that certain teachings are dogmatic which are not. I suggest you read a book on Dogmatic theology to learn about the different levels of certainty. .

Little Grasshopper, what you just wrote is a strawman, and a slandering of my every quote. You need to give examples of what you are talking about.

Quote

You will also find very few things are actually de fide

Yes, very few "things" are actually de fide, compared to all the knowledge of the world, compared to all the writings of the Church, yes, very few things are actually de fide. However, there are reams of dogmatic absolute truths that the Church, the Holy Ghost, has provided us with to lead us with certainty to heaven. I posted Nine such truths just on EENS. The decrees on the absolute necesity of baptism fronm the Council of Trent are dogmatic, and the Athanasian Creed.

I also posted at least, what, like 20 decrees from the Universal Ordinary magisterium. I know what dogma is.

If you feel I made a slip somewhere, let me know specifically what you are talking about.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #243 on:** December 03, 2011, 04:25:05 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote
Cupertino wrote: The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation.

Quote
Gunfighter wrote: Regardless of how BOD works, I would never say someone(except Judas) is definitely in hell.

Catholics when interrogated, must answer that the Church preaches that all those who die outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and without a doubt shall perish into the everlasting fire.
................................................................................

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."
Saint Francis Xavier

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #244 on:** December 03, 2011, 04:53:47 PM »

nadie, may I suggest you MOVE ON from the BOD issue? It is an issue that has been discussed many times on this forum and it gets quite old. I get the feeling that BOD is all you really want to talk about on this forum.

Furthermore, you obviouly do not understand what Cupertino wrote. He said we can't say for certain that individual people are in hell, he wasn't talking about groups of people such as Jews, pagans, hinduists, buddhists, etc. If you think we are free to say for certain that individual people are in hell, then you're a heretic. You never know, maybe that person converted on his deathbed.

Those quotes have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of BOD, those quotes deal with the topic of salvation ouside the Church. Of course there is no salvation outside the Church, the point is people who desire to be baptized but were unable to can still be saved. This is what many Saints have taught.

gunfighter · « **Reply #245 on:** December 03, 2011, 04:56:56 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote
Cupertino wrote: The Church tells us not to speculate about individual people's salvation.

Quote
Gunfighter wrote: Regardless of how BOD works, I would never say someone(except Judas) is definitely in hell.

Catholics when interrogated, must answer that the Church preaches that all those who die outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and without a doubt shall perish into the everlasting fire.
................................................................................

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Instead of worrying about HTML tags, why don't you pay attention to what others write.

People that receive BOD are in the Catholic Church. Therefore, if they are saved, the act does not conflict with EENS[/font][/size][/color][/i]

Did it help to use a different typeface?

gunfighter · « **Reply #246 on:** December 03, 2011, 05:00:53 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."
Saint Francis Xavier

As stated ad nauseum, it is very rare for a person to be saved by BOD. Thus, the assumption would be that most if not all of the Japanese were in hell. Per Catholic teaching, there is no way to free someone from hell once they have been judged.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #247 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:03:39 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

If you think we are free to say for certain that individual people are in hell, then you're a heretic.

Prove I'm a heretic. that's the fourth person that's called me a heretic for something that all the Fathers taught. One shouldn't throw around that title like it's nothing. if I'm a heretic, and die that way, I'm without a doubt going to hell. always remember that before you call someone a heretic. In essence you'd be damning me to hell. AND with no proof!

Do you think that Confucius is a group? Do yuo think the St. Francis Xavier was talking about a group when he addressed the Japanese about their family members? I could post hundreds of similar quotes fro the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church.

If a person inquires about what happens to a Protestant (for instance) who dies outside of the Church, because he died rejecting the Catholic Faith and the pope, they are objectively telling you what the person died as. Then there is no doubt, they are outside of the Church. BOD and EENS are tied together, you can't discuss one without the other.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."
Saint Francis Xavier

Raoul76 · « **Reply #248 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:25:39 PM »

Pax said:

Quote

See. That is the problem. I am insisting that the theological certainty of BOD must explicitly say that BOD fully incorporates one into the Roman Catholic Church so that I do not deny the dogmatic certainty of EENS.

I cannot see any other way of reconciling the two teachings.

It does fully incorporate you into the Church. How many times do you have to hear this? A member of the Church by desire = a member of the Church.

curiouscatholic23 · « **Reply #249 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:30:54 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

If you think we are free to say for certain that individual people are in hell, then you're a heretic.

Prove I'm a heretic. that's the fourth person that's called me a heretic for something that all the Fathers taught. One shouldn't throw around that title like it's nothing. if I'm a heretic, and die that way, I'm without a doubt going to hell. always remember that before you call someone a heretic. In essence you'd be damning me to hell. AND with no proof!

Do you think that Confucius is a group? Do yuo think the St. Francis Xavier was talking about a group when he addressed the Japanese about their family members? I could post hundreds of similar quotes fro the Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church.

If a person inquires about what happens to a Protestant (for instance) who dies outside of the Church, because he died rejecting the Catholic Faith and the pope, they are objectively telling you what the person died as. Then there is no doubt, they are outside of the Church. BOD and EENS are tied together, you can't discuss one without the other.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."
Saint Francis Xavier

Last time I checked, Pius X was a saint. Nadie explain yourself.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #250 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:31:53 PM »

Quote

People that receive BOD are in the Catholic Church. Therefore, if they are saved, the act does not conflict with EENS

This has been refuted by innumerable times by Pax and I. You are going in a circle. Here I go again:

The theoretical person who is pre-justified before he receives baptism, then dies while still not commiting a mortal sin, but before he can receive baptism (the definition of BOD of the catechumen) IS NOT IN THE CHURCH, only the sacramentally baptized are members of the Body, the Church. Therefore, thiis theoretical person is not saved, but he is also not lost, since he is without sin (justified). Where he is, or if such a person ever existed, who knows? You don't.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy
orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
have not received this consecration.”

These two statements exclude the idea that one can be saved by even an explicit
desire for baptism, since they affirm that those who have not received the Sacrament of Baptism are not Christians or members of the Church or members of Christ. (Those who are not Christians or members of the Church or members of Christ cannot be saved.)

In other words, according to the pronouncement of Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei, to assert that one could be a Christian or a member of Christ without the mark of baptism (which is what the theory of baptism of desire asserts) is akin to asserting that one can be a priest without ordination.

Here's some more material I didn't give you before:

The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible
extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: “ Leo XIII, Encyclical, “Divinum illud,” [expressed it] in these words: ‘Let it suffice to
state this, that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, the Holy Spirit is her
soul.’”

Second, the Church is essentially (i.e., in its essence) a Mystical Body.
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516: “… the mystical
body, the Church (corpore mystico)…”Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 8), May 26, 1910: “… the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ…”Pope Leo XII, Quod Hoc Ineunte (# 1), May 24, 1824: “… His mystical Body.”

Therefore, to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Body is to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Church, since the Church is a Body. And this is without question an error.

A man can be either inside the Church or outside the Church. He can be either inside or outside the Body. There isn’t a third realm in which the Church exists – an invisible Soul of the Church. Those who say that one can be saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church, while not belonging to her Body, deny the undivided unity of the Church’s Body and Soul, which is parallel to denying the undivided unity of Christ’s Divine andHuman natures.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it
follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden
and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly
impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that
man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of
both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate
union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something
dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

The denial of the union of the Church’s Body and Soul leads to the errory that the Church is invisible, which was condemned by Popes Leo XIII (above), Pius XI and Pius XII.

Third, the most powerful proof against the “Soul of the Church” heresy logically
follows from the first two already discussed. The third proof is that the infallible
magisterium of the Catholic Church has defined that belonging to the Body of the
Church is necessary for salvation!

Pope Eugene IV, in his Bull Cantate Domino, defined that the unity of the
ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that no one can be saved outside of it, even if he sheds his blood in the name of Christ. This destroys the idea that one canbe saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church without belonging to its Body.

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since
the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical
body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were
foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made
up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad:
whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no
member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its
head.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and nonexempt,
belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at
all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is
fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same
will…”

Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi (# 3), Dec. 12, 1769: “One is the body of
the Church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it.”

Raoul76 · « **Reply #251 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:32:20 PM »

Pax said:

Quote

Only those who are subject to the Roman Pontiff can be in the Church.

11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls?

Okay, let me do a little syllogism for you, first of all, just to show you how badly you can be wrong and are wrong about sedevacantism, which hopefully will put you on the path of humility:

( a ) You have to acknowledge the supremacy of Peter to be in the Church
( b ) Popes can, through heresy, fall out of the Church, thus ceasing to be Popes, as taught by St. Robert Bellarmine and others
( c ) Saying that there is no Pope, because the man who claims to be Pope is a heretic, is not rejecting Peter

Now, let me say again, baptism of desire makes you a member of the Church by desire, along with all that entails, including submission to the Roman Pontiff. God sees the hearts and judges that a certain person WOULD submit to the Roman Pontiff if he weren't in invincible ignorance; therefore he is baptized by desire, he submits to the Roman Pontiff by desire, etc. The minimum necessary knowledge to be saved, according to many theologians, is that God exists and that He is a rewarder.

Other kinds of knowledge like the Trinity are also necessary to be known. But some things need to be known by IMPLICIT faith, and others by explicit faith. Also, you should read up on absolute necessity of means, and relative necessity of means.

curiouscatholic23 · « **Reply #252 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:34:07 PM »

Nadie, please answer my question. Why do you call Pius X "blessed"? Was it an honest mistake? Or do you reject the papacy of Pius XII?

nadieimportante · « **Reply #253 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:34:17 PM »

Quote

Last time I checked, Pius X was a saint. Nadie explain yourself.

The quote comes from a book that is prior to Pius X being declared a saint.

gunfighter · « **Reply #254 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:34:39 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

Prove I'm a heretic. that's the fourth person that's called me a heretic for something that all the Fathers taught. One shouldn't throw around that title like it's nothing. if I'm a heretic, and die that way, I'm without a doubt going to hell. always remember that before you call someone a heretic. In essence you'd be damning me to hell. AND with no proof!

I wouldn't say you are a heretic. I would say you are mistaken. I would say that you have sinned against the virtue of charity. I would say that you presume to judge the state of the man's soul based on his outward appearance. When our Lord admonished us not to judge, he was referring to exactly what you are doing. Remember, you cannot necessarily judge a book by its cover.

It would not be judging, if you qualified your statement with something to the effect: "in all probability." It would also be appropriate to say that if a person dies as a infidel, they will be damned. You cannot say Mr. X died as a infidel, because you do not have the ability to read a man's soul.