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Author Topic: Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?  (Read 18918 times)

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Offline Telesphorus

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Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 03:23:20 PM »
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    What Saint Augustine wrote is a dogmatic truth that could have been said by anyone: They whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can't be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them


    What is not a dogmatic fact is the claim that catachumens who die before Baptism go to Hell.  Where is your evidence for the assertion that the Catechism of the Council of Trent is not infallible?  

    What is predestined to happen does not eliminate our free will nor does it make God capable of injustice.  These claims that God punishes people awaiting Baptism with eternal damnation in order to save them from the guilt of sins they haven't yet committed is very corrosive to belief in Divine Justice.  

    Baptism is necessary for salvation - but it is the grace of Baptism, not the pouring of water over the head, that is necessary for salvation.

    Those who deny Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood make God a capricious tyrant, in order to protect what they believe is some sort of orthodoxy.  The Augustinian position of sending unbaptized infants into the fire to avoid the charge of Pelagianism also treats God as a tyrant.  It's not necessary for the salvation of any Catholic to deny Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire, and it won't get anyone to heaven stubbornly insisting that water Baptism alone can save a person, driving those who might keep or accept the Faith to the opposite extreme.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 03:32:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    fallible Catechism of the Council of Trent


    You've got it backwards. Church Councils are Dogmatic and cannot contain errors, Saint Augustine was a fallible human being.

    Regarding your question, if a person is on his/her way to get baptized and gets killed along the way, then God has mercy on their soul since they desired to be baptized.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 03:36:21 PM »
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    Where is your evidence for the assertion that the Catechism of the Council of Trent is not infallible?  


    The Catechism of the Council of Trent is not infallible.  Fathers John A. McHugh, O.P. and Charles J. Callan, O.P. wrote the introduction for a common English translation of the Catechism of the Council of Trent.  Here is what their introduction had to say about the Catechism’s authority.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction XXXVI:  “Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church.  Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.”

    No catechism is infallible.



    As to the rest of what you wrote it is all emotional,  and full of false assumptions, and conclusions. Not worthy of a response.

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #18 on: November 28, 2011, 03:40:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    fallible Catechism of the Council of Trent


    You've got it backwards. Church Councils are Dogmatic and cannot contain errors, Saint Augustine was a fallible human being.

    Regarding your question, if a person is on his/her way to get baptized and gets killed along the way, then God has mercy on their soul since they desired to be baptized.


    READ carefully what I wrote, I said catechisms are fallible. In this case we have a fallible catechism vs. fallible St. Augustine. The Council of Trent did not say anything about the salvation of a catechumen that dies by accident before being baptized.
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #19 on: November 28, 2011, 03:44:54 PM »
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  • Ah, ok. But what is your response to the point I made?

    Quote from: nadieimportante
    As to the rest of what you wrote it is all emotional, and full of false assumptions, and conclusions. Not worthy of a response.


    That's funny, because I read Tele's post a few times and did not see any false assumptions or anything like that in it. Could it be his post was full of them, or could it be you said that in order to get out of responding to him because you have no response?
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #20 on: November 28, 2011, 03:49:37 PM »
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    Regarding your question, if a person is on his/her way to get baptized and gets killed along the way, then God has mercy on their soul since they desired to be baptized.


    What St. Augustine is saying is that the person can't die on the way to be baptized unless God allowed it. God's plans can't be thwarted by "an accident", by fate, and God is not a tyrant. So what is left?

    Either God has predestined that some will be saved without baptism, and predestined some to be created too ignorant, to dense, to recieve His grace of conversion (invisible ignorant), all of which has NEVER been declared by the Church.
    OR
    or else all the dogmatically declared dogmas of EENS are to be understood as they are clearly written, for God's grace can convert stones, and getting water baptism is the easiest part of conversion.

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #21 on: November 28, 2011, 04:02:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Ah, ok. But what is your response to the point I made?

    Quote from: nadieimportante
    As to the rest of what you wrote it is all emotional, and full of false assumptions, and conclusions. Not worthy of a response.


    That's funny, because I read Tele's post a few times and did not see any false assumptions or anything like that in it. Could it be his post was full of them, or could it be you said that in order to get out of responding to him because you have no response?


    Perhaps if Tele would quote me saying the things he attributes to me, I would answer him. there is no point in answering the strawmen that he created. i didn't say anything of what he criticizes. The proof is that he can't quote me. Notice that I quote everyone, then respond. If others would attempt to do the same, they will likely answer their own question.
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #22 on: November 28, 2011, 07:51:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante


    Can someone die by accident before God has accomplished what he has preordained?


    No. But someone can die by accident before he has has accomplished what he had intended to do.


    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #23 on: November 28, 2011, 10:48:27 PM »
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    Quote from: nadieimportante


    Can someone die by accident before God has accomplished what he has preordained?


    No. But someone can die by accident before he has has accomplished what he had intended to do.


    There is no difference between the two descriptions, it is only by God's will that we intend anything good, and it is only by God that we are taken from this sea of time. Not one justified person, predestined by God, is lost. There are no accidents, no mistakes. When God makes His call we must respond to His grace. If God does not provide the water it is because the person would reject it, maybe not that day, but some other time.

    In all times, most of the people of the world reject God's gracel. just look around you, even the majority of Catholics reject God's will, and they are baptized. Baptism does not mean salvation. In fact, in hell, the baptized person is worse off than the non-baptized.

    God can turn stones into children of Abraham, His grace can convert His most hardened sinner/enemy. He has all the time He wants to convert the person. If you've ever tried to convert someone you will understand just how difficult that work is. And yet, by your conclusions, you betray the mindset that the conversion is easy, and then the easy part, baptism, ANYONE pouring water over the persons head and saying a few words, that part, God does not have the time. It is total insanity. It stems from a total disbelief in the fact that non-Catholics are all lost, even if they shed their own blood for Christ. That is the bottom line.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 10:51:42 PM »
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    or else all the dogmatically declared dogmas of EENS are to be understood as they are clearly written, for God's grace can convert stones, and getting water baptism is the easiest part of conversion.


    Dogmas of the faith, like Outside the Church There is No Salvation, are truths fallen from heaven. The very point of a dogmatic definition is to DEFINE PRECISELY and EXACTLY what the Church means by the very words of the formula. If it does not do this by those very words in the formula then it has failed in its primary purpose – to define – and was pointless and worthless. ANYONE who says that we must interpret or understand the meaning of a dogmatic definition, in a way which contradicts its actual wording, is denying the whole point of Papal Infallibility and dogmatic definitions. They who insist that infallible DEFINITIONS must be interpreted by noninfallible statements (e.g., from theologians, catechisms, etc.) are denying the whole purpose of these infallible truths fallen from heaven. They are subordinating the dogmatic teaching of the Holy Ghost to the re-evaluation of fallible human docuмents,thereby inverting their authority, perverting their integrity and denying their purpose.

    All Nine dogmatic, Infallible, ex cathedra,  definitions of the Holy Ghost

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
     
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The implications of these pronouncements, taken together, are as follows:
    1. All nine of these statements are dogmatic, infallible, ex cathedra definitions of the Church and of the Pontiffs who made them.

    2. Being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them.

    3. The doctrine says clearly that only Catholics go to Heaven; all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell. All who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.
    4. The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members.

    5. Excluded also from this real and necessary membership are those who are unwilling to submit to the religious sovereignty of the Pope, though their faith be otherwise Catholic, and their morals laudable. All this means that the Church establishes the terms of membership within itself and is reasserting them by these decrease and no one else.

    6. Similarly, the decrees exclude all exceptions whatsoever, and implied in them is the sanctioning of all subterfuges and excuses such as "invincible ignorance," "good will," "baptism of desire," and the like.

    7. Since the aforementioned formula (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) is a doctrine of Catholicity, it is the standard of orthodoxy on the subject of salvation; which is to say, all writers, whether they be saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of whatever era, and their pronouncements are reliable in their treatment of this subject, if they accept and support it. Their testimony or opinions are useless (at best), if they do not, this regardless of any other contribution they may have made to Catholic erudition. The same must be said of the works of all Catholic writers.

    8. Such a dogmatic statement is the most certain knowledge that men have, more certain than metaphysical principles, or mathematical formulas, or historical accounts. It is the revelation and proposition of God Himself.

    9. Such a dogmatic statement is not to be colored, or reduced, or altered, by reference to the Sacred Scriptures. On the contrary, it is in terms of such a statement that all the Scriptures are to be read and understood.'

    10. This doctrine is a mystery, as are all the sacred dogmas of the Faith. This means that it cannot be fully understood, nor adequately explained. As with other dogmas, were this truth self evident, or provable, or comprehensible, there would be little reason for the Church to define it.

    11. The negative tenor of these definitions is to warn that any word, or artifice, or attentuation, which relieves every individual of the human race from the obligation of joining the Roman Catholic Church is condemned as contrary to divine prescription.

    12. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so. They were not regarded as heretics or fanatics at the time of their pronouncements, and have never been labelled such by the Church to this very day. It is an easy thing for the people of this "enlightened" age to fall into the modern delusion that the men of former times, especially those of the Middle Ages, were not as bright as we are, so that they sometimes said they knew not what.
    13. The dates of these definitions are extremely important. They mark the time when the Church terminated speculation and discussion among theologians on the subject of the conditions of salvation. All writings on this subject, therefore, which predate these definitions have value only in so far as they corroborate these definitions.

    14. The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "'foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second class transport.

    15. Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecclesiam, etc., and ends by denying it while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it. What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the Church's lnfallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying.

    16. When it is responded that certain individuals do not know that what they are hearing is God's word, the reply is: What is being said demands that careful inquiry be made. If the inquiry is made with the disposition of humility, integrity, and courage, the inquirer will find that the word cannot be denied.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In addition to the ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) proclamations of the popes, a Catholic must also believe what is taught by the Catholic Church as divinely revealed in her Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (Magisterium = the teaching authority of the Church).

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, Sess. III, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: “Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.”

    The teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium consists of those doctrines which popes, by their common and universal teaching, propose to be believed as divinely revealed. The teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium can never contradict the teaching of the Chair of Peter (the dogmatic definitions), of course, since both are infallible. Thus, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium does not actually have to be considered at all in regard to Outside the Church There is No Salvation, because this dogma has been defined from the Chair of Peter and nothing in the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium can possibly contradict the Chair of Peter. So beware of those who try to find ways to deny the Church’s dogmatic teaching on Outside the Church There is No Salvation by calling fallible, non-magisterial statements which contradict this dogma, as part of the “Ordinary and Universal Magisterium,” when they aren’t.


    Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio,
    “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”

    Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
    “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

    Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
    “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”

    Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb.25, 1570: “The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him [Jesus Christ], unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema.”

    Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
    “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

    Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”

    Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

    Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”

    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 ;
    Proposition 16: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned

    Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: “Christ is man’s ‘Way’; the Church also is his ‘Way’… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain.”

    Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”

    Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society.  Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 10:56:02 PM »
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  • When God's mercies have reached their end He punishes, and pardons no more. God is merciful; but, as great as His mercy is, how many people He sends to Hell every day! God is merciful but He is also just; and He is therefore obliged to punish those who offend Him. When sins reach a certain number, God pardons no more. St. Basil, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, and other Fathers teach that, according to the words of Scripture: "Thou hast ordered all things in measure and number and weight" (Wisdom 11: 2 1), God has fixed for each person the number of sins He will pardon; and when this number is completed, He will pardon no more. God does bear with us, but not forever. When the time comes for vengeance, He punishes. How many God has sent to Hell for the first offense! St. Gregory relates that a child five years old was seized by the devil for having uttered a blasphemy and carried into Hell. Another of eight, after his first sin, died and was lost. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori


    How many souls have been damned for a single mortal sin!  St. Ignatius of Loyola

    Faith is a gift from God. And let no one have any doubt whatsoever that, while this gift is given to some, to others it is not given. Why it is not given to everyone ought not disturb the faithful; even if no one were delivered, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God!  
    St. Augustine


    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 11:19:40 PM »
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  • Question for Nadie:

    Were there not many and numerous medieval saints who believed in baptism of blood and desire? According to your logic, they would had to have been heretics.

    Offline gunfighter

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 11:22:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
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    Where is your evidence for the assertion that the Catechism of the Council of Trent is not infallible?  


    The Catechism of the Council of Trent is not infallible.  Fathers John A. McHugh, O.P. and Charles J. Callan, O.P. wrote the introduction for a common English translation of the Catechism of the Council of Trent.  Here is what their introduction had to say about the Catechism’s authority.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction XXXVI:  “Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church.  Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.”

    No catechism is infallible.



    As to the rest of what you wrote it is all emotional,  and full of false assumptions, and conclusions. Not worthy of a response.



    I think we all know what is and is not infallible.  The real question is whom do you trust, the Dimond's pitch or St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catechism.  For the rational Catholic, the only answer can be the latter.  Why would one trust the Dimond's over the Angelic Doctor.  Pure folly.

    Could St. Thomas be wrong.  Sure.  Will I be judged for believing St. Thomas on an issue that is irrelevant to my life?  Not a chance.  Would I be judged if I followed the Dimonds and they turn out to be wrong, I think yes.  Thus, I will follow the teaching of the Saint that Our Lord praised.

    I don't think any of us believe that a large number of souls are saved by BOD.  We just recognize the ability of God to show mercy upon whom He shows mercy.

    Finally, follow the money.  If the Dimonds did not find a hook to pull in unlearned minds, then they would not be able to fund their enterprise.  Their existence is dependent upon rejecting all of the clergy, NO or traditional.

    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 11:46:25 PM »
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  • Although I believe in BOD and BOB, I do not think that feeneyites such as those Benedictines at MHFM should be called "heretics" for not believeing in BOD and BOB. Does anyone else agree with me?

    I have heard some sede clergy like Fr. Cekada deny holy communion to public feeneyites, is the same true of the SSPX?

    (p.s. Even if you disagree with MHFM, we should still respect the fact that they are traditional benedictines who hold a very powerfull apostolate).

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Dying by "Accident" before being baptized, and BOD?
    « Reply #29 on: November 28, 2011, 11:58:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: gunfighter
    Quote from: nadieimportante
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    Where is your evidence for the assertion that the Catechism of the Council of Trent is not infallible?  

    No catechism is infallible.

    As to the rest of what you wrote it is all emotional,  and full of false assumptions, and conclusions. Not worthy of a response.


    I think we all know what is and is not infallible.  The real question is whom do you trust, the Dimond's pitch or St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catechism.  For the rational Catholic, the only answer can be the latter.  Why would one trust the Dimond's over the Angelic Doctor.  Pure folly.


    Somebody can come to the conclusion that pre-destination excludes the concept of an accidental death and therefore gives grave difficulties to the concept of implicit faith BOD completely independently of any influence of the Dimonds.

    For instance, if he read the Church Fathers, he would most likely see that their moral consensus is opposed -- explicitly in some writers, such as St Augustine and St Gregory of Nyssa -- to the concept of BOD.  It is commonly said that BOD is the constant teaching of the Church, but I have never seen anybody sufficiently explain the fact that the Church Fathers hardly mention it at all -- that is, unless they are writing against it.

    This issue also troubles me, since the 1941 letter from the Holy Office seems to clearly conflict with the moral consensus of the Church Fathers and the plain meaning of the language of numerous oecuмenical councils and the teachings of the great missionary saints of the XVIIth century (such as St Francis Xavier, St Peter Claver, St Isaac Jogues, &c.).  If I were to accept implicit faith, it would be purely as a bow to authority, though I am not convinced that the Church's authority has defined this subject.  It would be purely out of obedience because, according to all logic, the whole theory of BOD makes no sense whatsoever and I have never seen a convincing explanation.  Perhaps it could make sense if one were ready to accept that the mind is fundamentally incapable of knowing the Truth as such and therefore one could not be held accountable for betraying the movements of the intellect out of fear, but I cannot accept this.

    Anyway, to make a long post shorter, the issue is not so simple as St Thomas versus the Dimonds; your interpretation of St Thomas is debatable and the Dimonds can be completely removed from this discussion without anything changing.  For instance, I cannot recall ever having read the Dimonds' literature on this topic and still have my doubts concerning BOD.