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Offline Last Tradhican

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Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« on: August 24, 2017, 05:23:00 PM »
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    St. Augustine:   “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

    Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)[/size]


    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)

    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

    Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547)
    Decree on Justification,
    Chapter IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

    Chapter VII.

    What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



    Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



    Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
    On Baptism

    Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


    Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)

    Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
    way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
    Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
    have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
    consequently are not members of Christ

    orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
    have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)


    (Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 06:45:28 PM »
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  •  :applause:About the only significant improvement that could be made that I can see is a side-by-side comparison.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 08:33:15 PM »
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  • :applause:About the only significant improvement that could be made that I can see is a side-by-side comparison.
    There would not be enough room to put their convoluted explanations, like a JPII encyclical, 100 pages that can be condensed to one or two sentences.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 05:18:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    An intention, incidentally, is an act of the will which is expressed by the statement that I am actually setting out to do a certain thing; a velleity, on the other hand, is an act of the will expressed in the declaration that I would like to do a thing. If I really intend to do a certain thing-to take a definite trip, for example-that intention necessarily affects all the rest of my plans and my conduct at the time. The man who really intends to take a plane to New York certainly will not make any plans or enter into any agreements incompatible with the taking of the trip he has set out to make. The mere velleity, on the other hand, has no such effectiveness. If I say I would like to take a trip to New York, this statement and the act of the will of which it is the expression have no influence whatsoever on the rest of my plans. The velleity is a mere complacency in an idea. It involves no actual preparation to accomplish its objective. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #4 on: September 15, 2017, 01:33:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

    (Just ignore this dogmatic Athanasian Creed and Pope Eugene IV, Fr. Fenton does, so why shouldn't  you? Dogma evolves, the Athanasian Creed is old school. Besides, you must ignore it to believe what Fr. Fenton and all the Vatican II clergy teach today, that people can be saved without belief in the Incarnation or the  Holy Trinity.  Today, people can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. Isn't that wonderful! )

    Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #5 on: September 15, 2017, 01:45:26 PM »
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  • You are using a bad translation of the Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X (the implication being that Pope Saint Pius X supposedly didn't teach baptism of desire and baptism of blood).

    Incorrect. 
    If we look at the original catechism of Pope Saint Pius X published in 1912, we can clearly see Pope Saint Pius X teaching not only baptism of desire and baptism of blood, but also on the soul of the Church. Here are photocopies of the appropriate pages in the original Catechism published in 1912:   Catechism cover   Page 24–25   Page 48-49.

    Page 25 contains Question 132 which contains the text, "132. Chi è fuori della Chiesa si salva? Chi è fuori della Chiesa per propria colpa e muore senza dolore perfetto, non si salva; ma chi ci si trovi senza propria colpa e viva bene, può salvarsi con l'amor di carità, che unisce a Dio, e, in spirito, anche alla Chiesa, cioè all'anima di lei." 

    This is the same exact Italian text easily found through Google searches. While the authors of this website do not speak Italian, even a broken Google translation of the above text clearly shows Pope Saint Pius X teaching that one can be saved in the soul of the Church through perfect contrition. Google translation: "132. Who is outside the Church is saved? Who is outside the Church through their own fault and die without pain perfect, you do not save it, but whoever you are find no fault of their own and live well, can be saved with the love of charity, which unites with God, and, spirit, even in the Church, that her soul."

    Pages 48-49 contain Question 280 which contains the text, "280. Se il Battesimo necessario a tutti, può salvarsi nessuno senza Battesimo? Senza Battesimo nessuno può salvarsi, quando però non si possa ricevere il Battesimo di acqua, basta il Battesimo di sangue, cioè il martirio sofferto per Gesù Cristo, oppure il Battesimo di desiderio che é l'amor di carità, desideroso dei mezzi di salute istituiti da Dio."

    Again, this is the same exact Italian text easily found through Google searches. Even a broken Google translation of the above text clearly shows Pope Saint Pius X teaching both baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Google translation: "280. If the Baptism necessary at all, no one can be saved without Baptism? Nobody can be saved without baptism, but when we can not receive Bapt
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #6 on: October 15, 2017, 03:55:58 PM »
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  • Pretty funny OP, now that I look at it after almost 2 months. Hard to believe that the SSPX teaches that stuff. What a joke.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 05:39:25 PM »
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  • Anyone who's a Catholic, when asked whether a Jew or a Mohammedan or a Protestant or a schismatic can be saved, MUST ANSWER NO.  To say anything else constitutes nothing less than an obviously heretical denial of Catholic dogma.

    Now, the only way to get people into the Church and, therefore, saved ... without this blatant heresy ... is to apply distinctions, in particular, the formal vs. material distinction.  I know a Protestant.  Even though he looks like a Protestant, goes to a Protestant Church, believes as Protestants do, etc., he's really deep down, without even knowing it, a Catholic.  In other words, he's materially a Protestant but formally Catholic.  Tragically, most Catholics, and most Traditional Catholics even, do not even answer this way, and are therefore in open heresy on the matter.  But for those that DO make this distinction, what we have here is nothing other than ANONYMOUS CATHOLICISM.  Tip of the hat to Karl Rahner.

    And, what we have here is nothing other than VATICAN II ECCLESIOLOGY, where, within the Church, and therefore eligible for salvation, are not only Catholics, but all kinds of people who, while appearing to be non-Catholic on the outside (materially), are really Catholic on the inside (formally).  So we have this strange frankenchurch which consists of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Mohammedans, etc.  And EVERY SINGLE ERROR OF VATICAN II reduces to THIS FUNDAMENTAL ECCLESIOLOGICAL PROBLEM.

    So most Traditional Catholics are really ANONYMOUS CONCILIARISTS.

    Honestly, if I believed this crap that most Traditional Catholics promote, then I would have no choice but to state that there's nothing substantially wrong with Vatican II and that I have been schismatic for having been out of communion with the Post-Vatican II Church.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 11:04:44 AM »
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  •  I know a Protestant.  Even though he looks like a Protestant, goes to a Protestant Church, believes as Protestants do, etc., he's really deep down, without even knowing it, a Catholic.  In other words, he's materially a Protestant but formally Catholic.  Tragically, most Catholics, and most Traditional Catholics even, do not even answer this way, and are therefore in open heresy on the matter.  
    If he "behaves" like  a Catholic, he will convert before death, for if he is close to being a Catholic as you observe, it is only because he has accepted God's actual graces. His lack of formal conversion is a sign to me that he still has little white rabbits that he does not want to abandon. Until he becomes a Catholic and goes to confession, he will not receive any sanctifying grace, the ultimate gift of God.

    St. Peter Julian Eymard – Bad Catholic vs Good Protestant

    People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!
    St. Peter Julian Eymard

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 08:27:27 AM »
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  • The BODers have to change dogma's meaning in order to teach what they do, however, there are too many dogmas to change. When you see even these few dogma's all together and how they respond to them in reality, it is truly comical. Nevertheless, their response is foundational to the Vatican II religion, without their end run around the dogmas by their "salvation by belief in a God that rewards", there would be no Vatican II revolution.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 08:59:04 AM »
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  • The BODers have to change dogma's meaning in order to teach what they do, however, there are too many dogmas to change. When you see even these few dogma's all together and how they respond to them in reality, it is truly comical. Nevertheless, their response is foundational to the Vatican II religion, without their end run around the dogmas by their "salvation by belief in a God that rewards", there would be no Vatican II revolution.
    Men will alway seek to do what it is that suits them, and not what the Divine law obliges them to do.
    As with the Protestants, they form their beliefs according to lower things such as sentimentality, and then they work at reading the meaning which they believe, into the Dogma to confirm it.
    It is natural to the liberal mind to second guess the Divine Will.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:06 AM »
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  • I'm not sure Protestants can be saved by an inward conversion.

    Quote
    8 And I say to you: *Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the Angels of God. -- Luke 12:8

    The Haydock Bible commentary:

    Quote
    Ver. 8. Whosoever shall confess me. By these words we are informed, that more than bare inward protestations of fidelity will be demanded of us; for he moreover requires an exterior confession of our faith. (St. Ambrose)

    See http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id76.html

    So that would indicate that St Ambrose only ever considered a catechumen (or at least someone who publicly professed the Catholic Faith) as a candidate for BOD.  And it appears to me that up to and including Trent, it was always in reference to catechumens that BOD was brought up.  The practice of instructing them before baptism is also an indication of the belief that premature death would not be an obstacle to Heaven.  If they could not go to Heaven in the event of death before the baptism ceremony, then for the sake of justice they should have been baptised first and then instructed (just like infants).  I couldn't find anything on the baptismofdesire web site which indicated that prior to Trent anyone believed that anyone who doesn't publicly profess the Catholic Faith (i.e. non-Catholics) could be saved or receive BOD but there is plenty of support for the idea that catechumens (who are not members of the Church prior to baptism) will be saved if they persevere until death.  But what that means in terms of how they will be saved is not specified precisely.  For martyrs they will be baptised in their own blood.  For the rest maybe they are baptised in their own desire?  But if they are baptised, there is no reason to say that the correct matter and form were not supplied.  And there is no reason to make accusations of heresy against people who say that it must have been the water and words of baptism.  On the other hand, to accuse people who do believe in BOD of heresy is rash since BOD has never been condemned by the Church.  Only the denial (direct or indirect) of the dogmas connected with justification should be condemned but it is clear that there are definitions of BOD which avoid conflict with those dogmas.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 11:22:05 AM »
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  • Maybe I should give a definition of BOD which I think avoids any condemnation:

    BOD is the concept that if a man perseveres to the end in publicly professing the Catholic Faith and in sorrow for his sins, Our Lord will give him the grace to be baptised before death.

    In the case of catechumens we have no right to conclude that by their death before the scheduled baptism ceremony that they failed unless we have positive evidence that they did not persevere.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 12:47:36 PM »
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  • This thread is not about baptism of desire of the catechumen, for as you can see from the OP, the false BODers actually reject the idea that one even needs to be baptized by desire, or be Catholic, or believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. By discussing baptism of desire here, you are letting them off the hook. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 02:15:46 AM »
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  • Readers of dogmas work from the foundation of dogma. With readers of dogmas like myself, if you want to convince me about some subject that has been thoroughly defined, like EENS, you have to debate with dogma that is clear. This because dogma is the final judgement on a matter previously in dispute and must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them. DENY THEM.



    On the other hand, with interpreters of dogma, the actually dogmas mean nothing, they must be interpreted by "an expert". From there they go seeking teachers according to their own beliefs. As anyone who is honest with themselves will see, these experts (Novus Ordo, SSPX, CMRI) have today concluded that the Athanasian Creed does not say that one must believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. If you want proof that dogmas MEAN NOTHING to them, and the Denial of dogma, there is not better example.


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

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