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Author Topic: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"  (Read 10157 times)

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Offline Gregory I

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Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
« Reply #180 on: March 25, 2017, 08:40:43 PM »
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  • I am asking for a yes or no to both questions.
    Salvation terminates in baptism because the Character makes you a member of the mystical body of Christ, so yes;
    And as for the Catechumen, I have answered this scenario. The elect will be baptized and persevere, the reprobate will not persevere, though some may be baptized. Can God accomplish it in theory? YES.
    But does he will to for THIS catechumen? That's a hidden judgment. Perhaps an elect catechumen would respond to interior graces to look both ways. Perhaps the reprobate catechumen resists said graces.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #181 on: March 25, 2017, 09:09:42 PM »
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  • Salvation terminates in baptism because the Character makes you a member of the mystical body of Christ, so yes;
    And as for the Catechumen, I have answered this scenario. The elect will be baptized and persevere, the reprobate will not persevere, though some may be baptized. Can God accomplish it in theory? YES.
    But does he will to for THIS catechumen? That's a hidden judgment. Perhaps an elect catechumen would respond to interior graces to look both ways. Perhaps the reprobate catechumen resists said graces.


    What source support do you have that an angel can perform any of the Sacraments?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #182 on: March 25, 2017, 09:24:58 PM »
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  • What source support do you have that an angel can perform any of the Sacraments?
    I don't say an angel myself, you did. Although angels have been known to minister holy communion.

    Rather I say that it is presumptuous and rash to assume a catechumen who meets an untimely death is saved and not damned. Says who? Given all the circuмstances for his easy reception existed and yet God did not see fit to suspend any unfortunate events, it seems more likely he is judged for hidden sins.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #183 on: March 25, 2017, 09:48:47 PM »
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  • Untrue, because there are things in theology left to diversity of opinion.
    For example, regarding grace, freewill and predestination, Are you a Thomist, a Congruist, a strict Molinist, an Augustinian or a Synthesist?
    Or regarding the mode of sacramental operation- Do the sacraments operate morally or physically?
    Or regarding transubstantiation, is the Transibstantiation Physical Mutation or Adduction?
    There is plenty that is unresolved and left to our best guess.
     
    I'm a lifelong Catholic and I have never had to delve into such subjects so deeply - don't make saving your soul harder than it already is. Better to focus on the basics; confessing your sins regularly, attending Mass, saying your daily Rosary, and other basics. In these things, the Church is our authority, and our personal opinions and feelings do not matter.
     

    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #184 on: March 25, 2017, 09:59:50 PM »
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  • I'm a lifelong Catholic and I have never had to delve into such subjects so deeply - don't make saving your soul harder than it already is. Better to focus on the basics; confessing your sins regularly, attending Mass, saying your daily Rosary, and other basics. In these things, the Church is our authority, and our personal opinions and feelings do not matter.
     
    Really, so now you want to say this is all an unnecessary conversation? I could have told you that, just read Ludwig Van Ott.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #185 on: March 25, 2017, 10:13:39 PM »
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  • You posit contradictions, I posit resolutions.

    I believe that settles it.

    And again, I never deny what God CAN do, I simply affirm he has revealed what he wills to do.
     
    Greg, your posts are becoming more and more bizarre.
    You are acting like there are contradictions all throughout the Church and that you've been given some special gift to work out both sides of the contradictions and provide all of us with resolutions so that we can all live peacefully. Kind of like a lawyer trying to make deals with two opposing sides. The contradictions are in your mind and they are due to your self interpretation of Church doctrines, instead of going to the Church for them. Classic Protestantism - you need to read up on it and learn from the past. You are sounding more and more nuts with every post.


     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #186 on: March 25, 2017, 10:25:57 PM »
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  • I don't say an angel myself, you did. Although angels have been known to minister holy communion.

    Rather I say that it is presumptuous and rash to assume a catechumen who meets an untimely death is saved and not damned. Says who? Given all the circuмstances for his easy reception existed and yet God did not see fit to suspend any unfortunate events, it seems more likely he is judged for hidden sins.

    I think it's time to post these quotes again since you seem to have a selective memory:

    St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Doctor of the Church (12th century): Letter No.77, Letter to Hugh of St. Victor, On Baptism: “If an adult...wish and seek to be baptized, but is unable to obtain it because death intervenes, then where there is no lack of right faith, devout hope, sincere charity, may God be gracious to me, because I cannot completely despair of salvation for such a one solely on account of water, if it be lacking, and cannot believe that faith will be rendered empty, hope confounded and charity lost, provided only that he is not contemptuous of the water, but as I said merely kept from it by lack of opportunity..."

    Pope Innocent II (12th Century): From his letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona, "We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland.

    St. Bonaventure, Doctor of the Church (13th century): In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I: “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies."

    St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church (16th century): De Sacramento Baptismi, cap. 6: “...among the ancients this proposition was not so certain at first as later on: that perfect conversion and repentance is rightly called the Baptism of Desire and supplies for Baptism of water, at least in case of necessity”

    ....."it is certainly to be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when it is not from contempt but through necessity that persons die without Baptism of water.

    Baltimore Catechism (1885): Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): Baptism: "It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

    This totally ends your rant on the subject.



    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #187 on: March 25, 2017, 11:50:50 PM »
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  • Not quite. With the 19th century Fr. Michael Muller, no mean theologian, and Orestes Brownson, whom he quotes, I say:

    “However, in all the instances of extraordinary or miraculous intervention of Almighty God, whether in the order of nature, or in the order of grace known to us, he has intervened ad Ecclesiam, and there is not a shadow of authority for supposing that he ever has miraculously intervened or ever will intervene otherwise. To assume that he will, under any circuмstances, intervene to save men without the medium ordinarium, (the Church) is perfectly gratuitous, to say the least. To bring men in an extraordinary manner to the Church is easily admissible, because it does not dispense with the revealed economy of salvation, nor imply its inadequacy, but to intervene to save them without it appears to us to dispense with it, and to imply that it is not adequate to the salvation of all whom God's goodness leads him to save. That those in societies alien to the Church, invincibly ignorant of the Church, if they correspond to the graces they receive, and persevere, will be saved, we do not doubt, but not where they are, or without being brought to the Church. They are sheep in the prescience of God, Catholics, but sheep not yet gathered into the fold. “Other sheep I have," says our Blessed Lord, "that are not of this fold; them also I must bring; they shall hear my voice; and there shall be made one fold and one shepherd." This is conclusive, and that these must be brought, and enter the fold, which is the Church, in this life, as St. Augustine expressly teaches."

    They weren't Feeneyites you know, and they held strictly to the dogmas.

    Have you READ Fr Mullers "The Salvation Dogma"?

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecuмenism/muller.htm

    This is all I mean by what I say. Those who are saved in extraordinary fashions will always be saved through the Visible Church.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #188 on: March 26, 2017, 08:06:12 AM »
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  • I don't say an angel myself, you did. Although angels have been known to minister holy communion.

    Rather I say that it is presumptuous and rash to assume a catechumen who meets an untimely death is saved and not damned. Says who? Given all the circuмstances for his easy reception existed and yet God did not see fit to suspend any unfortunate events, it seems more likely he is judged for hidden sins.

    Distributing Holy Communion is not performing a Sacrament.

    So, now you are trying to say if a Catechumen died, we presume he didn't deserve the Sacrament! What you are saying now is that the Church was rash and presumptuous to legislate and order Requiem Masses to be said for all Catechumens that die!

    You are hanging your hat on Fr. Muller's quote over everything else. Muller was wrong, face it. You cannot reconcile an opposite. That's what modernists try to do. Muller was wrong, and the Saints, Doctors and Canon law are right. Bosco just quoted them. That is what you are supposed to do, go with reason in handling these quotes, not trying to accept both "yes" and "no" as both correct. Muller was mistaken, and you need to face that.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #189 on: March 26, 2017, 09:27:42 AM »
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  • You can now judge the fate of each catechumen? We don't know what it is in this regard. Surely some can be saved, but surely some are damned, it is presumptuous to say we know certainly either way.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #190 on: March 26, 2017, 09:53:48 AM »
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  • I think it's time to post these quotes again since you seem to have a selective memory:

    St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Doctor of the Church (12th century): Letter No.77, Letter to Hugh of St. Victor, On Baptism: “If an adult...wish and seek to be baptized, but is unable to obtain it because death intervenes, then where there is no lack of right faith, devout hope, sincere charity, may God be gracious to me, because I cannot completely despair of salvation for such a one solely on account of water, if it be lacking, and cannot believe that faith will be rendered empty, hope confounded and charity lost, provided only that he is not contemptuous of the water, but as I said merely kept from it by lack of opportunity..."

    Pope Innocent II (12th Century): From his letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona, "We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the 'priest' whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland.

    St. Bonaventure, Doctor of the Church (13th century): In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I: “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies."

    St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church (16th century): De Sacramento Baptismi, cap. 6: “...among the ancients this proposition was not so certain at first as later on: that perfect conversion and repentance is rightly called the Baptism of Desire and supplies for Baptism of water, at least in case of necessity”

    ....."it is certainly to be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when it is not from contempt but through necessity that persons die without Baptism of water.

    Baltimore Catechism (1885): Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): Baptism: "It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

    This totally ends your rant on the subject.

    What is bizarre is that you twist the meaning of these quotes to apply them to someone who is not even a catechumen. You cannot care less about a justified catechumen who dies in his way to receive the water Baptism.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #191 on: March 26, 2017, 10:07:13 AM »
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  • Notice this says nothing about the need for faith. The Soul of the Church is a metaphor introduced by St. Robert Bellarmine to describe that part of the visible Church which is composed of the virtues of faith hope and charity. Those baptized Catholics who are mortally sinful adhere to the body, the visible structure, but not the soul, metaphorically speaking.
    So Hypothetically it would be possible for a person to have infused in him faith, hope and charity and would belong, metaphorically speaking, to the soul of the Church. I.E. they would posses the object toward which all the sacraments are geared as instruments- sanctifying grace.

    This is my one single contention- I can grant the above, understood properly, that is that those who are so united have explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity.
    But I grant it as a transient state. Those who enter into this state, if they persevere, will infallibly come to be baptized. This happened with the Mexicans and Native Americans and South American Indians, as Well as the Koreans in the person of Ven. Caius.

    Thank you, Gregory I. That is exactly it!

    The soul of the Church is not composed of the non-Catholics.

    From Trent, Decree on Justification:

    Quote
    For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.

    For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]
    For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circuмcision availeth anything nor uncircuмcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]

    This faith, Catechumen's BEG of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they BEG for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Why a catechumen begs of the Church the Faith necessary for salvation before the water Baptism? because they do not have it a that point yet! That is why. Because Faith, hope and charity are infused at the same time at the point of Baptism.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #192 on: March 26, 2017, 11:22:25 AM »
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  • You can now judge the fate of each catechumen? We don't know what it is in this regard. Surely some can be saved, but surely some are damned, it is presumptuous to say we know certainly either way.


    No, not of each. It is unseen, and the Church says an individual CAN be saved, not IS saved in each instance.

    You still have to know that Muller is wrong, and the quotes by Saints/Doctors are correct. Stop trying to reconcile opposites. Church teaching is unlike Holy Scriptures. Nobody said the meaning of Scripture comes to us with "ease and security", but it is said of Church teaching, because that's the way it is. Stop treating Church teaching like there are seemingly opposite things that need to be reconciled by you personally. By doing so you condemen what Mortalium Animos said.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #193 on: March 26, 2017, 11:29:04 AM »
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  • What is bizarre is that you twist the meaning of these quotes to apply them to someone who is not even a catechumen. You cannot care less about a justified catechumen who dies in his way to receive the water Baptism. 


    What kind of silly remark is that about he could "care less"?  What does that supposed to mean? How is is supposed to show "care"? He merely follows what the Church teaches about it.

    So, is this your profession that baptism of desire for catechumens can save them without water, or do you reject these quotes?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #194 on: March 26, 2017, 11:34:03 AM »
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  • Why a catechumen begs of the Church the Faith necessary for salvation before the water Baptism? because they do not have it a that point yet! That is why. Because Faith, hope and charity are infused at the same time at the point of Baptism.


    No, that is not why. Your reasoning failed. The Church has Her rites. How can there be another for a catechumen in sanctifying grace when nobody could know that but God??

    The Church even teaches a Catholic could gain sanctifying grace before Confession by perfect contrition, but since that cannot be seen in any individual case, the Church has ONE rite of absolution for the penitent regardless of what is unseen by man.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.