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Author Topic: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"  (Read 10150 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2017, 12:26:46 AM »
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  • What are you talking about? We just said that the virtue of faith is required for perfect contrition.
     
    I just sent you a quote approved by Pope St. Pius X in his catechism. Why are you dismissing it?
     
    Gregory I is refering to the Catholic Faith. But according to you, someone can possess this virtue of faith "implicitly" (which means "unconsciously") without actually having the Catholic Faith, being ignorant of Jesus Christ and His Church, or even in a false religion.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #151 on: March 25, 2017, 01:35:18 AM »
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  • The Catholic Church teaches infallibly when it comes to faith and morals, not on other subjects like science and history. Scripture contains things on subjects besides faith and morals, such as on nature, and because Scripture is considered holy, and the Church is the sole interpreter of it, the faithful in general believe what Scripture states on other topics like nature, but those other topics are not considered teachings, just pious beliefs. So a subject like geo-centrism is not considered a doctrine of the Church. The reason the Church originally got involved in condemning heliocentrism was because the Church felt at the time that the way Galileo was presenting it was causing harm to the faithful. Later on, when the Church felt the danger was no longer present, it allowed both heliocentrism and geo-centrism. The Church could do this because this was NOT about a doctrine on faith and morals.

    Again, see the quotes I just posted from the First Vatican Council and the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X confirming that the Church is infallible and cannot allow error. When this is said, it is referring to faith and morals.
    Oh my, how long must we endure this lack of knowledge and understanding?  In fact, the Church is ALWAYS infallible when She speaks formally for all.  On ANY subject.  In fact, the Church teaches that She, the Church proscribes science.  Not the other way around.  
    Decrees of Vatican Council 1  IV Of Faith and Reason: ...We define therefore, every assertion, contrary to the truth of enlightened Faith is utterly false. Further the Church which, together with the apostolic office of teaching has received the charge to guard the deposit of faith, derives from God the right and the duty of proscribing false science, lest any should be deceived by philosophy and vain fallacy.  Therefore all Christians are not only forbidden to defend as legitimate conclusions of science such opinions as are known to be contrary to the doctrines of the faith, especially if they have been condemned by the Church but are altogether bound to account them as errors which put on the fallacious appearance of truth. 


    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #152 on: March 25, 2017, 02:35:24 AM »
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  • It may be helpful for everyone to read this excellent article quoting various theologians on the effects of the Sacramental Character of Baptism. 
    http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2012/04/sacramental-seal-of-baptismthe.html

    I am not interested in systematizing opinions at opposite ends of a spectrum. That's called stupidity.

    I am interested in faithfully integrating into my own personal beliefs a truly synthetic understanding of all these issues, one that accounts for the contradictions and explains the apparent inconsistencies.

    In that vein, it seems to me personally that the very best solution is the one that involves no denial of what has been constantly taught either by a unanimous consensus of fathers (That baptism in SOME way can be supplied) or theologians (That baptism, being an instrumental cause, is not a formal cause of our salvation, but sanctifying grace is, and can therefore be infused independently of the sacrament). 

    That also includes the need on the part of everyone for an actual and explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity to be saved, at least since the promulgation of the gospel, that invincible ignorance is itself a punishment for sin, that the invincibly ignorant who die as such are damned, etc. That Sacramental Water Baptism is obliging on every man without exception. That this is necessary for membership within the Church and submission to the Roman Pontiff. 

    SO, it would seem the best thing to say is that:

    All who are to be saved will be baptized.
    Not all who are baptized are saved.

    All who abide by God's actual grace will receive greater gifts of faith, hope and charity, they will experience a virtual membership in the church for as long as they persevere in this justification. Think of this in the same sense as being in the brown scapular confraternity. Without being a Carmelite, you receive the graces of the Carmelite order.
    Not all who receive these gifts persevere. In fact, most will not, for most are not saved.

    But those who do persevere, the few, will infallibly be led to the Visible Society of the Church, Outside of which there is no salvation.
    And these will be baptized. The testimonies from the histories of the saints bear explicit witness to the fact that this does happen.

    There are two things I wish to simultaneously affirm to steer clear of error:

    1. God can supply baptism for all his elect. But he can also dispense with a created instrument, which baptism is, and infuse grace without it. We HAVE to admit that God can do this.

    2. But God has also clearly obligated all to water baptism and declared that there is no salvation outside the visible Church.

    Rather than oppose these two things, I seek to reconcile the nuances without falling into the condemnations of Baius or the Jansenists.

    Remember, THIS proposition is CONDEMNED:


    Quote
    1043 43. In persons who are penitent before the sacrament of absolution, and in catechumens before baptism, there is true justification, yet separated from the remission of sin.
    Therefore, just as in penitents before absolution, through contrition they can obtain remission of sins, so too with catechumens.

    But Guess what is also condemned?

    Quote
    1173  23. Faith widely so called according to the testimony of creature or by a similar reason suffices for justification.

    THe intellects notion of God derived from the observation of creation is NOT SUFFICIENT FOR FAITH! Do you get that? TO look at the stars and say, "There must be a God" is not Supernatural faith. It is human faith, deriving conclusions from human ingenuity and is NOT SALVIFIC. 

    BUT, this is not a statement of destiny. Who knows the hidden judgments of Christ? And who knows how difficult it is to persevere without the sacraments! Perhaps the catechumen who has had charity infused and his sins remitted falls into secret mortal sin, and God decides to take him simply to manifest his justice and the hiddenness of his decisions?

    And again, who knows but that the hypothetical man among wolves may catch a glimpse of the light and stumble out of the forest into a missionary camp because he followed nature's law to the best of his ability? And he would be baptized!

    Ultimately I see no contradiction. The only contradiction comes from either end of the spectrum: "God not only can but DOES save people who are justified by baptism of desire and die untimely deaths!" I would say, show me these people.

    And from the other end I would hear: "There is no justification at all without the reception of water baptism, ever." I would say this runs contrary to the fathers and the saints and the scholastics. And I don't feel daring enough to end up in  mortal sin by potentially exposing myself to proximate heresy via denial of that.

    Therefore, I would say personally, that all though God CAN save anyone he wants to through BoD, at the end of the day, because he is God and does not Change and has manifested certain of his decisions and the reasons why he made them (Like leading honest natives to baptism in miraculous fashion!), that he will not change his methodology, and therefore all who WILL be saved ARE Saved in actuality by water baptism. This becomes clearer to me when you really read about what the sacramental Character IS. 


    Quote
    The nature and significance of the Character seem to us to come to this: that it is the signature which makes known that the members of the God-Man’s Mystical Body belong to their divine-human Head by assimilating them to Him, and testifies to their organic union with Him.
    The Character of the members must be a reflection and replica of the theandric Character of this Head. For, to become other Christs, the members must share in the Character by which the Head becomes Christ.
    But the signature whereby Christ’s humanity receives its divine dignity and consecration is nothing else than its Hypostatic Union with the Logos.
    Consequently, the Character of the members of Christ’s Mystical Body must consist in a Seal which establishes and exhibits their relationship to the Logos: their Character must be analogous to the Hypostatic Union and grounded upon it. . . .
    Thus, from every point of view the idea. . . is substantiated that the Character by which Christians are anointed and become Christians is analogous to the Hypostatic Union of the humanity with the Logos, which is what makes Christ what He is. (Fr. Matthias Joseph Scheeben, The Mysteries of Christianity, Pages 582-587)
    And Again


    Quote
    And in his Catechetical Lectures III, page 33, Saint Cyril of Jerusalem assures us:

    If a person does not receive the Seal by Baptism, he will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. This seems very bold language, but I only say that it is the Lord’s, not mine!


    Furthermore there is a nice little syllogistic difficulty:

    1. God does not command impossibilities for the just.
    2. But people who have BoD are justified.
    3. Therefore it is not impossible for them to be baptized.

    1. It is not impossible for People justified by BoD to be baptized.
    2. But some who appear in such a state die unbaptized.
    3. It must then be concluded that they died unjust, for they failed to accomplish what they were obliged to do.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #153 on: March 25, 2017, 03:06:13 AM »
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  • Another denier of the dogma of infallibility of the Church! I think that's the 4th person now. Amazing how the Feeneyites are slowly coming out of the woodwork and revealing their true colors now.

    First Vatican Council:

    "...for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

    This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell."

    Stubborn, apparently you missed this post. It contains the information you've been asking for.

    No, this is not the solemn definition of the Church's infallibility. This is not the dogma, this is the preface to the dogma, i.e. the solemn definition of papal infallibility which, as you so aptly demonstrate, is misunderstood when taken out of context as you do while the solemn definition itself is ignored. 

    So for you to say; "Another denier of the dogma of infallibility of the Church! I think that's the 4th person now. Amazing how the Feeneyites are slowly coming out of the woodwork and revealing their true colors now." only demonstrates you do not even know what the dogma is, yet you accuse me and others of denying that which you have no knowledge of at all.

    This issue of taking what the Church teaches out of context then wrongfully calling that dogma, will remain an ongoing issue so long as you continue to selectively quote infallible teachings.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #154 on: March 25, 2017, 12:23:17 PM »
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  • Gregory I is refering to the Catholic Faith. But according to you, someone can possess this virtue of faith "implicitly" (which means "unconsciously") without actually having the Catholic Faith, being ignorant of Jesus Christ and His Church, or even in a false religion.
     
    Pope Leo XIII approved of the following in the Baltimore catechism in the 1880s, as did all popes after him:
     
    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
     
    So are you saying Pope Leo XIII and all popes after him are heretics ?

     


    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #155 on: March 25, 2017, 12:37:17 PM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII approved of the following in the Baltimore catechism in the 1880s, as did all popes after him:
     
    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
     
    So are you saying Pope Leo XIII and all popes after him are heretics ?

     
    Notice this says nothing about the need for faith. The Soul of the Church is a metaphor introduced by St. Robert Bellarmine to describe that part of the visible Church which is composed of the virtues of faith hope and charity. Those baptized Catholics who are mortally sinful adhere to the body, the visible structure, but not the soul, metaphorically speaking.
    So Hypothetically it would be possible for a person to have infused in him faith, hope and charity and would belong, metaphorically speaking, to the soul of the Church. I.E. they would posses the object toward which all the sacraments are geared as instruments- sanctifying grace.
    This is my one single contention- I can grant the above, understood properly, that is that those who are so united have explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity.
    But I grant it as a transient state. Those who enter into this state, if they persevere, will infallibly come to be baptized. This happened with the Mexicans and Native Americans and South American Indians, as Well as the Koreans in the person of Ven. Caius.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #156 on: March 25, 2017, 01:07:42 PM »
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  • In fact, the Church is ALWAYS infallible when She speaks formally for all.  On ANY subject.  In fact, the Church teaches that She, the Church proscribes science.  Not the other way around.  
     
    Happenby, here are some quotes for you showing that the Church teaches that it is infallible on matters of faith and morals, not on any subject. Certainly if something extrinsic to faith or morals appears to be threatening a teaching of the Church, the Church will obviously speak up and condemn the threat. But the general teaching of the Church is that infallibility pertains to faith and morals only:
     
    Pope Pius IX, On Faith and Religion, 1846:
    "God Himself has set up a living authority to establish and teach the true and legitimate meaning of His heavenly revelation. This authority judges infallibly all disputes which concern matters of faith and morals, lest the faithful be swirled around by every wind of doctrine which springs from the evilness of men in encompassing error"
     
    Catechism of St. Pius X:
    55 Q: Can the Pope err when teaching the Church?
    A: The Pope cannot err, that is, he is infallible, in definitions regarding faith and morals.
     
    CE, Infallibility:
    "...preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals..."
     
    The First Vatican Council renews the decree on the Church's interpretation of holy Scripture, and confirms it does so "in matters of faith and morals"
     
    Pope Pius XI, on Christian Education, 1929:
    "Hence it is that in this proper object of her mission, that is, "in faith and morals, God Himself has made the Church sharer in the divine magisterium and, by a special privilege, granted her immunity from error; hence she is the mistress of men, supreme and absolutely sure, and she has inherent in herself an inviolable right to freedom in teaching"
     
    Benedict XV, On Dante, 1921:
    "For him the Roman Church is The Most Holy Mother, Bride of Him Crucified and to Peter, infallible judge of revealed truths, is owing perfect submission in matters of faith and morals."
     
    A Catholic Dictionary, Infallibility:
    "... It has always been believed that the Catholic church of Christ is divinely kept from the possibility of error in her definitive teaching in matters of faith and morals, and this was expressed by the Vatican Council..."
     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #157 on: March 25, 2017, 01:14:52 PM »
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  • No, this is not the solemn definition of the Church's infallibility. This is not the dogma, this is the preface to the dogma, i.e. the solemn definition of papal infallibility which, as you so aptly demonstrate, is misunderstood when taken out of context as you do while the solemn definition itself is ignored.  

    So for you to say; "Another denier of the dogma of infallibility of the Church! I think that's the 4th person now. Amazing how the Feeneyites are slowly coming out of the woodwork and revealing their true colors now." only demonstrates you do not even know what the dogma is, yet you accuse me and others of denying that which you have no knowledge of at all.

    This issue of taking what the Church teaches out of context then wrongfully calling that dogma, will remain an ongoing issue so long as you continue to selectively quote infallible teachings.
     
    Stubborn, I know you are just living up to your name, but you've lost the argument here, face it.
     


    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #158 on: March 25, 2017, 01:32:39 PM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII approved of the following in the Baltimore catechism in the 1880s, as did all popes after him:
     
    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
     
    So are you saying Pope Leo XIII and all popes after him are heretics ?

     
    It is a material error, and no Pope LeoXIII did not personally say this to the universal church, so it is not infallible.  Pope Leo XIII did condemn the american prelates most notably the person who created the Baltimore Catechism.  
    You are the idiot sedevacantist not us, we have actually read the code of canon law on the difference between an error and heresy.  You are not in communion with the lawful Pope in the Church, you decide which popes you want to keep and throw away.  

    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #159 on: March 25, 2017, 01:48:41 PM »
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  • It is a material error, and no Pope LeoXIII did not personally say this to the universal church, so it is not infallible.  Pope Leo XIII did condemn the american prelates most notably the person who created the Baltimore Catechism.  
    You are the idiot sedevacantist not us, we have actually read the code of canon law on the difference between an error and heresy.  You are not in communion with the lawful Pope in the Church, you decide which popes you want to keep and throw away.  
    And this attitude colors everything. Remember, the identity of the Pope is a matter of Dogmatic Fact. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the body of the Church as a whole to misidentify the Pope. That is why ultimately to deny the identity of the Pope is Jansenist, because, like the Jansenists, it is a denial of the existence of Dogmatic Facts, that the Church can objectively and Authoritatively declare, not only the Content of the Faith, but its practical application, i.e. which docuмents contain error or not, which persons are heretical or not. These determinations, being dogmatic facts, are infallible, and part of that infallibility is the identity of the Pope.
    Now, once you allow yourself the denial of Dogmatic facts, you have already fallen into Grave error, albeit perhaps inculpably through zeal. But what happens? You start a chain reaction of errors against discernment. Believe me, I know, I have done this LOTS of times, as Stubborn and Nishant and Cantarella can affirm. When you go to one length in one area of Doctrine, you find yourself slowly dismissing other things all in the name of "Correctness!" But truth is not to be found in the passionate dismissal of things you barely understand. It requires docility of heart, a calmness in the face of the Church's teaching, a conscience without agendas.
    We are all guilty at different times of wanting to make the teaching of the Church in our own image. This is why I opt to synthesize the best, try to deny nothing, and aim for continuity in my understanding in all of the Church's teachings. Systemization is easy. You just pick a principle and consistently run with it. Anyone can systematize, this is how you end up with heresies.
    The higher, more noble, and difficult path is Synthesis. To try and arrive at an understanding of noncontradiction, to give your betters the benefit of the doubt, and to only proclaim  dissonance where dissonance is truly present.
    And to do so dispassionately.
    Good luck!
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #160 on: March 25, 2017, 01:50:10 PM »
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  • It is a material error, and no Pope LeoXIII did not personally say this to the universal church, so it is not infallible.  Pope Leo XIII did condemn the american prelates most notably the person who created the Baltimore Catechism.  
    You are the idiot sedevacantist not us, we have actually read the code of canon law on the difference between an error and heresy.  You are not in communion with the lawful Pope in the Church, you decide which popes you want to keep and throw away.  
     
    You are truly desperate, TD. You call it a "material error", yet Pope Leo XIII approved the Baltimore catechism for use in all the schools in the US in 1885, and it continued to be used in US schools throughout the entire 20th century, with no objection from all the popes during that century. Thousands of bishops and priests during that century also utilized the catechism without any complaints. Now you know better than all of them?
     
    Please provide source for your Pope Leo XIII condemnation claim.
     
    The "not infallible" argument is so embarrassing I don't even bother commenting on it anymore. As if catechisms contain error, and the Church does nothing about it for centuries at a time! Catholics don't have the freedom to choose which questions they want to follow in the catechism, and which ones they want to condemn.
     


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #161 on: March 25, 2017, 01:50:34 PM »
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  • Happenby, here are some quotes for you showing that the Church teaches that it is infallible on matters of faith and morals, not on any subject. Certainly if something extrinsic to faith or morals appears to be threatening a teaching of the Church, the Church will obviously speak up and condemn the threat. But the general teaching of the Church is that infallibility pertains to faith and morals only:
     
    Pope Pius IX, On Faith and Religion, 1846:
    "God Himself has set up a living authority to establish and teach the true and legitimate meaning of His heavenly revelation. This authority judges infallibly all disputes which concern matters of faith and morals, lest the faithful be swirled around by every wind of doctrine which springs from the evilness of men in encompassing error"
     
    Catechism of St. Pius X:
    55 Q: Can the Pope err when teaching the Church?
    A: The Pope cannot err, that is, he is infallible, in definitions regarding faith and morals.
     
    CE, Infallibility:
    "...preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals..."
     
    The First Vatican Council renews the decree on the Church's interpretation of holy Scripture, and confirms it does so "in matters of faith and morals"
     
    Pope Pius XI, on Christian Education, 1929:
    "Hence it is that in this proper object of her mission, that is, "in faith and morals, God Himself has made the Church sharer in the divine magisterium and, by a special privilege, granted her immunity from error; hence she is the mistress of men, supreme and absolutely sure, and she has inherent in herself an inviolable right to freedom in teaching"
     
    Benedict XV, On Dante, 1921:
    "For him the Roman Church is The Most Holy Mother, Bride of Him Crucified and to Peter, infallible judge of revealed truths, is owing perfect submission in matters of faith and morals."
     
    A Catholic Dictionary, Infallibility:
    "... It has always been believed that the Catholic church of Christ is divinely kept from the possibility of error in her definitive teaching in matters of faith and morals, and this was expressed by the Vatican Council..."
    The Church cannot err, period.  A pope can err, but not in formal declarations on behalf of the universal Church in which case, he is infallible, too.  And as my quote above shows, the Church proscribes science and has issued infallible statements on the subject.  It is impossible for the Church to "say, declare, define," or "say, pronounce, sentence and declare," or any other similar formula, while speaking for the universal Church and be wrong. The Church proscribed false science in the Galileo case.  

    “We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, the said Galileo...have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures, that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the earth moves and is not the center of the world...after it has been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture."

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #162 on: March 25, 2017, 03:19:53 PM »
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  • The Church cannot err, period.  A pope can err, but not in formal declarations on behalf of the universal Church in which case, he is infallible, too.  And as my quote above shows, the Church proscribes science and has issued infallible statements on the subject.  It is impossible for the Church to "say, declare, define," or "say, pronounce, sentence and declare," or any other similar formula, while speaking for the universal Church and be wrong. The Church proscribed false science in the Galileo case.  

    “We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, the said Galileo...have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures, that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the earth moves and is not the center of the world...after it has been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture."
     
    I just provided you plenty of quotes on the subject. Are you saying they are all wrong?
     
    It is certainly the duty of the Church to protect, interpret and defend Holy Scripture, and if an incorrect interpretation of it by someone like Galileo could be seen as endangering the Church, the Church has the right to declare it. This was not a doctrine on faith and morals, but it potentially endangered the faith and morals of the faithful, so the Church condemned him.
     
    But to get down to the primary issue here, you admitting that the Church cannot err directly destroys your claim that baptism of desire is heresy, since the Church has taught it all along. Don't you realize you are preaching against your own cause?

     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #163 on: March 25, 2017, 03:30:00 PM »
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  • It may be helpful for everyone to read this excellent article quoting various theologians on the effects of the Sacramental Character of Baptism.
    http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2012/04/sacramental-seal-of-baptismthe.html

    I am not interested in systematizing opinions at opposite ends of a spectrum. That's called stupidity.

    I am interested in faithfully integrating into my own personal beliefs a truly synthetic understanding of all these issues, one that accounts for the contradictions and explains the apparent inconsistencies.

    In that vein, it seems to me personally that the very best solution is the one that involves no denial of what has been constantly taught either by a unanimous consensus of fathers (That baptism in SOME way can be supplied) or theologians (That baptism, being an instrumental cause, is not a formal cause of our salvation, but sanctifying grace is, and can therefore be infused independently of the sacrament).

    That also includes the need on the part of everyone for an actual and explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity to be saved, at least since the promulgation of the gospel, that invincible ignorance is itself a punishment for sin, that the invincibly ignorant who die as such are damned, etc. That Sacramental Water Baptism is obliging on every man without exception. That this is necessary for membership within the Church and submission to the Roman Pontiff.

    SO, it would seem the best thing to say is that:

    All who are to be saved will be baptized.
    Not all who are baptized are saved.

    All who abide by God's actual grace will receive greater gifts of faith, hope and charity, they will experience a virtual membership in the church for as long as they persevere in this justification. Think of this in the same sense as being in the brown scapular confraternity. Without being a Carmelite, you receive the graces of the Carmelite order.
    Not all who receive these gifts persevere. In fact, most will not, for most are not saved.

    But those who do persevere, the few, will infallibly be led to the Visible Society of the Church, Outside of which there is no salvation.
    And these will be baptized. The testimonies from the histories of the saints bear explicit witness to the fact that this does happen.

    There are two things I wish to simultaneously affirm to steer clear of error:

    1. God can supply baptism for all his elect. But he can also dispense with a created instrument, which baptism is, and infuse grace without it. We HAVE to admit that God can do this.

    2. But God has also clearly obligated all to water baptism and declared that there is no salvation outside the visible Church.

    Rather than oppose these two things, I seek to reconcile the nuances without falling into the condemnations of Baius or the Jansenists.

    Remember, THIS proposition is CONDEMNED:

    Therefore, just as in penitents before absolution, through contrition they can obtain remission of sins, so too with catechumens.

    But Guess what is also condemned?

    THe intellects notion of God derived from the observation of creation is NOT SUFFICIENT FOR FAITH! Do you get that? TO look at the stars and say, "There must be a God" is not Supernatural faith. It is human faith, deriving conclusions from human ingenuity and is NOT SALVIFIC.

    BUT, this is not a statement of destiny. Who knows the hidden judgments of Christ? And who knows how difficult it is to persevere without the sacraments! Perhaps the catechumen who has had charity infused and his sins remitted falls into secret mortal sin, and God decides to take him simply to manifest his justice and the hiddenness of his decisions?

    And again, who knows but that the hypothetical man among wolves may catch a glimpse of the light and stumble out of the forest into a missionary camp because he followed nature's law to the best of his ability? And he would be baptized!

    Ultimately I see no contradiction. The only contradiction comes from either end of the spectrum: "God not only can but DOES save people who are justified by baptism of desire and die untimely deaths!" I would say, show me these people.

    And from the other end I would hear: "There is no justification at all without the reception of water baptism, ever." I would say this runs contrary to the fathers and the saints and the scholastics. And I don't feel daring enough to end up in  mortal sin by potentially exposing myself to proximate heresy via denial of that.

    Therefore, I would say personally, that all though God CAN save anyone he wants to through BoD, at the end of the day, because he is God and does not Change and has manifested certain of his decisions and the reasons why he made them (Like leading honest natives to baptism in miraculous fashion!), that he will not change his methodology, and therefore all who WILL be saved ARE Saved in actuality by water baptism. This becomes clearer to me when you really read about what the sacramental Character IS.

    And Again



    Furthermore there is a nice little syllogistic difficulty:

    1. God does not command impossibilities for the just.
    2. But people who have BoD are justified.
    3. Therefore it is not impossible for them to be baptized.

    1. It is not impossible for People justified by BoD to be baptized.
    2. But some who appear in such a state die unbaptized.
    3. It must then be concluded that they died unjust, for they failed to accomplish what they were obliged to do.
     
    Gregory,
     
    Looking at your post, one thing stands out immediately, when you say things like:
     
    Quote
    "I am interested in faithfully integrating into my own personal beliefs a truly synthetic understanding of all these issues, one that accounts for the contradictions and explains the apparent inconsistencies."

    "It seems to me personally that..."

    "SO, it would seem the best thing to say is that...."

    "Therefore, I would say personally...."
     
    Maybe you don't realize it but you think and speak exactly like a Protestant does.  As Catholics we all know and believe that the CHURCH is our authority, and that's where we go to for the meaning of doctrines. Your quotes above show that you are personally interpreting things on your own, and that you don't trust that the Church cannot teach error by looking for "apparent inconsistencies". You really need to look at yourself - this is no different than Protestant thinking and you've really lost the concept of what Catholicism is all about.

     

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #164 on: March 25, 2017, 03:56:56 PM »
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  • Stubborn, I know you are just living up to your name, but you've lost the argument here, face it.
     
    Right, I lost the argument because you do not know what the solemn definition is. :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse