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Author Topic: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"  (Read 10144 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
« Reply #135 on: March 24, 2017, 10:22:44 AM »
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  • SO, Here, after long and diligent searching, I have found the complete theological vindication of the strict interpretation of Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salvus, not at the hands of an modern theologian, but Francisco Vitoria, a 16th Century Dominican who wrote SPECIFICALLY on the case of natives in invincible ignorance, particularly the American Indians. His writing is extremely important, because he cites other theologians and admits certain views are opposed to a great number of theologians who hold opposite views.

    http://www.constitution.org/victoria/victoria_4.htm

    Reflections on the Indians lately discovered.

    In this work, he takes up and examines two positions in regard to invincible ignorance, both of which arrive at the same conclusion, but differ as to whether ignorance in relation to divine matters is always sinful, or a punishment for sin.

    An excerpt:



    However, interestingly, he goes on to say:



    So he admits many theologians before him did NOT admit anyone was in invincible ignorance regarding that which was needed for belief unto salvation. Nevertheless, he takes up the opinion of St. Thomas, and admits that in regard to the faith, they are in invincible ignorance:



    BUT he comes to the same judgment as Hugh of St. Victor, that all who do not believe and are baptized are condemned for other mortal sins BESIDES the unbelief of which they are invincibly ignorant:



    Therefore, in accordance with the teaching of Catholic theologians who lived at the same time as the council of Trent, it is permissible and allowable to assert one of two opinions, either:

    A. All those who are in ignorance of the gospel are not excused from their obligation to hear and to know it, and if they die in the sin of unbelief, it is due to their own negligence and refusal to pursue baptism. Such was the opinion of the great theologian Hugh of St. Victor as well as many other theologians.

    B. All those who are in invincible ignorance of the gospel do not sin in their unbelief, but their unbelief is a punishment for their OTHER mortal sins, for which they will be damned. Their lack of confessing Christ and their lack of baptism are punishments for unrepentant mortal sin and a failure to correspond to actual graces.

    I take the second because it is more in accord with St. Thomas Aquinas and the later teaching of Popes.

    The conclusion of both is the same- Even a person who is invincibly ignorant of the truth, should they die without the gospel and baptism are damned on account of their mortal sins.

    Therefore, if any are saved they will infallibly embrace the faith and infallibly enter the Church. So many examples of such things happening could be given, but here is just one:

     

    He who has ears to hear!

    Let's ask Bosco or Humpty Dumpty (with their parodic views on infallibility) why the Church did not condemn the works of Francisco Vitoria at the time. One may think She would have done so if his works were in error, but She did not.

    Does that mean that Vitoria was right?


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #136 on: March 24, 2017, 11:14:00 AM »
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  • Let's ask Bosco or Humpty Dumpty (with their parodic views on infallibility) why the Church did not condemn the works of Francisco Vitoria at the time. One may think She would have done so if his works were in error, but She did not.

    Does that mean that Vitoria was right?
    No. Please Cantarella. Let's not ask these two stale cheeseballs anything. But may they rest in peace forever---away from us forever. 


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #137 on: March 24, 2017, 01:32:04 PM »
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  • Another denier of the dogma of infallibility of the Church! I think that's the 4th person now. Amazing how the Feeneyites are slowly coming out of the woodwork and revealing their true colors now.

    I'm even more amazed that you people seem to have never heard of this dogma! Do you guys have books at home on the Catholic faith, or you do you just have comic books? This dogma is mentioned everywhere! Look at the CE article on Infallibility alone - there is an entire section called, "Proof of the Church' s Infallibility".

    For you others who have blatantly denied this dogma, here are a few more quotes for you:


    First Vatican Council:
    "...for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

    This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell."


    Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Creed Ninth Article:
    33 Q: Can the Church err in what she proposes for our belief?
    A: No, the Church cannot err in what she proposes for our belief, since according to the promise of Jesus Christ she is unfailingly assisted by the Holy Ghost.

    34 Q: Is the Catholic Church infallible, then?
    A: Yes, the Catholic Church is infallible, and hence those who reject her definitions lose the faith and become heretics.
     
    Stubborn, apparently you missed this post. It contains the information you've been asking for.
     
     

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #138 on: March 24, 2017, 01:49:18 PM »
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  • Stubborn, apparently you missed this post. It contains the information you've been asking for.
     
     
    Somebody is mistaking heresy in people's idea of Church teaching and the Church being in error.  The Church cannot err and She teaches Baptism and the Church are necessary. Saints can make mistakes.  The Church cannot.  

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #139 on: March 24, 2017, 02:23:44 PM »
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  • Somebody is mistaking heresy in people's idea of Church teaching and the Church being in error.  The Church cannot err and She teaches Baptism and the Church are necessary. Saints can make mistakes.  The Church cannot.  
     
    Yes, the Church cannot err - this is a dogma. And that is exactly how we know with certainty that baptism of desire is not heresy, since it's been taught for 20 centuries without a single condemnation.
     


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #140 on: March 24, 2017, 02:46:56 PM »
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  • SO, Here, after long and diligent searching, I have found the complete theological vindication of the strict interpretation of Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salvus, not at the hands of an modern theologian, but Francisco Vitoria, a 16th Century Dominican who wrote SPECIFICALLY on the case of natives in invincible ignorance, particularly the American Indians. His writing is extremely important, because he cites other theologians and admits certain views are opposed to a great number of theologians who hold opposite views.

    http://www.constitution.org/victoria/victoria_4.htm

    Reflections on the Indians lately discovered.

    In this work, he takes up and examines two positions in regard to invincible ignorance, both of which arrive at the same conclusion, but differ as to whether ignorance in relation to divine matters is always sinful, or a punishment for sin.

    An excerpt:



    However, interestingly, he goes on to say:



    So he admits many theologians before him did NOT admit anyone was in invincible ignorance regarding that which was needed for belief unto salvation. Nevertheless, he takes up the opinion of St. Thomas, and admits that in regard to the faith, they are in invincible ignorance:



    BUT he comes to the same judgment as Hugh of St. Victor, that all who do not believe and are baptized are condemned for other mortal sins BESIDES the unbelief of which they are invincibly ignorant:



    Therefore, in accordance with the teaching of Catholic theologians who lived at the same time as the council of Trent, it is permissible and allowable to assert one of two opinions, either:

    A. All those who are in ignorance of the gospel are not excused from their obligation to hear and to know it, and if they die in the sin of unbelief, it is due to their own negligence and refusal to pursue baptism. Such was the opinion of the great theologian Hugh of St. Victor as well as many other theologians.

    B. All those who are in invincible ignorance of the gospel do not sin in their unbelief, but their unbelief is a punishment for their OTHER mortal sins, for which they will be damned. Their lack of confessing Christ and their lack of baptism are punishments for unrepentant mortal sin and a failure to correspond to actual graces.

    I take the second because it is more in accord with St. Thomas Aquinas and the later teaching of Popes.

    The conclusion of both is the same- Even a person who is invincibly ignorant of the truth, should they die without the gospel and baptism are damned on account of their mortal sins.

    Therefore, if any are saved they will infallibly embrace the faith and infallibly enter the Church. So many examples of such things happening could be given, but here is just one:

     

    He who has ears to hear!
     
    A few comments on this post:
     
    1. Notice the quotes you just provided do not take into account perfect contrition, which the Church teaches is an essential component that must go along with invincible ignorance if there is any possibility of someone being saved in such a state. With that in mind, the quotes you provide seem accurate at first glance.
     
    2. "Divine Law" in the quotes you provide is obviously referring to the Natural Law (which is part of Divine Law). Read in that context, the quotes you provide seem to make sense.
     
    3. I have not confirmed the accuracy of the quotes you provided, but speaking generally, you're quoting a man who is a priest, along with several other unknown names from 4 centuries ago. These people are obviously fallible just like the rest of us, and their quotes would not trump the quotes already provided by Catholic popes on the subject.

     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #141 on: March 24, 2017, 03:00:42 PM »
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  • Let's ask Bosco or Humpty Dumpty (with their parodic views on infallibility) why the Church did not condemn the works of Francisco Vitoria at the time. One may think She would have done so if his works were in error, but She did not.

    Does that mean that Vitoria was right?
     
    As I mentioned in another post just now, at first glance the quotes provided by Greg appear accurate, given that they don't incorporate the concept of perfect contrition, which changes everything.
     
    But for sake of discussion, let's say for the moment that Fr. Victoria's book contained error. In such a case, Rome does not immediately get involved. First, the error would have to appear to be spreading, such as in the situation with Father Feeney, and in that case the problem is first handled at the local level by the Bishop. If the error is not recanted after some time, it goes to the next level, which may be an archbishop of a diocese, for example. If it is still not resolved, it goes up the ladder eventually to Rome. Rome will then investigate and give those spreading the error a chance to recant. It is only after all of these processes complete that an official condemnation comes down from Rome if the people involved don't submit to the Church. That's why condemnations take years. In MOST cases, clergy etc will stand corrected and submit to the Church, in which case the problem is over.

     

    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #142 on: March 24, 2017, 05:09:10 PM »
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  • A few comments on this post:
     
    1. Notice the quotes you just provided do not take into account perfect contrition, which the Church teaches is an essential component that must go along with invincible ignorance if there is any possibility of someone being saved in such a state. With that in mind, the quotes you provide seem accurate at first glance.
     
    2. "Divine Law" in the quotes you provide is obviously referring to the Natural Law (which is part of Divine Law). Read in that context, the quotes you provide seem to make sense.
     
    3. I have not confirmed the accuracy of the quotes you provided, but speaking generally, you're quoting a man who is a priest, along with several other unknown names from 4 centuries ago. These people are obviously fallible just like the rest of us, and their quotes would not trump the quotes already provided by Catholic popes on the subject.

     
    Ah, but are we not bound by the unanimous consent of theologians? That is the arena in which BoD and BoB is taught.
    So are YOU now opposing the Papal Magisterium to theologians? Are the theologians perhaps not so unanimous you assume?
    Or are you simply not reading the Papal Magisterium in an internally coherent fashion?
    And here's the bottom line- if you die ignorant, you go to Hell, because your ignorance is a punishment for unrepentant mortal sins.
    That's the whole point.

    Perfect contrition cannot be had apart from faith.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #143 on: March 24, 2017, 09:39:55 PM »
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  • Ah, but are we not bound by the unanimous consent of theologians? That is the arena in which BoD and BoB is taught.
    So are YOU now opposing the Papal Magisterium to theologians? Are the theologians perhaps not so unanimous you assume?
    Or are you simply not reading the Papal Magisterium in an internally coherent fashion?
    And here's the bottom line- if you die ignorant, you go to Hell, because your ignorance is a punishment for unrepentant mortal sins.
    That's the whole point.

    Perfect contrition cannot be had apart from faith.
    That's right.  Perfect contrition cannot be had without Faith.  Only the baptized can have perfect contrition by virtue of the Faith infused at Baptism.  And even then, the right disposition is necessary as well, something difficult even for those who receive the Eucharist and confess regularly.  It is certain that perfect contrition is not common, but extraordinary in Catholics.  Not possible in unbaptized because they not only do not have supernatural Faith, they do not have infused charity which brings the heroic disposition to repent strictly for love of God.  Now watch.  All this is true, but somehow the BODH will try to bumph this and then get it wrong...again.    

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #144 on: March 24, 2017, 09:55:17 PM »
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  • Yes, the Church cannot err - this is a dogma. And that is exactly how we know with certainty that baptism of desire is not heresy, since it's been taught for 20 centuries without a single condemnation.
     
    Pope Saint Siricius condemned it in the earliest known papal letter.  
    “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”

    You are a liar Bosco. 

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #145 on: March 24, 2017, 10:55:46 PM »
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  • Ah, but are we not bound by the unanimous consent of theologians? That is the arena in which BoD and BoB is taught.
    So are YOU now opposing the Papal Magisterium to theologians? Are the theologians perhaps not so unanimous you assume?
    Or are you simply not reading the Papal Magisterium in an internally coherent fashion?
    And here's the bottom line- if you die ignorant, you go to Hell, because your ignorance is a punishment for unrepentant mortal sins.
    That's the whole point.

    Perfect contrition cannot be had apart from faith.
     
    Stop and look at what you are suggesting here. You are saying that anyone can write an opinion on a doctrine of the Church, and if he or someone else calls him a theologian, his "vote" counts against the unanimous consent of theologians! That's not how it works. Guardian Angels have never been solemnly defined, but they are taught by unanimous consent. According to you then, a self proclaimed "theologian" can come along and print a booklet saying Guardian Angels don't exist, and then the Church will have to proclaim, "What a shame, unanimous consent has been broken for Guardian Angels, so the faithful no longer need to believe in them". Give us a break Greg!
     
    What you are doing is pulling quotes from an obscure book from centuries ago, interpreting it as you see fit, and coming to a conclusion which is false. No one is challenging that perfect contrition cannot be had apart from faith. Popes have spoken on this. People who are invincibly ignorant can have faith and perfect contrition, as we see in the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:
     

    Quote
    The Creed, Ninth Article, The Church in Particular: 29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

     
    Stop playing games and submit to what the Popes teach!
     


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #146 on: March 24, 2017, 11:06:08 PM »
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  • Pope Saint Siricius condemned it in the earliest known papal letter.  
    “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”

    You are a liar Bosco.
     
    :facepalm:   Truly embarrassing, TD. Go look through the texts of all the 20 General Councils where all condemnations are docuмented. There are also a few encyclicals where condemnations are docuмented, such as that on Martin Luther. ALL condemnations very clearly state the heresy being taught, and who taught it, so the faithful can avoid them all.
     
    So if baptism of desire were truly condemned, we would see a very clear docuмent from the Church specifically referring to "baptism of desire" by name, and it would then list all those who "erroneously" taught it including, Pope Innocent II, Pope Innocent III, Pope Pius IX, St. Pope Pius X, Pope Pius XII, St. Cyprian, Tertullian, St. Emerentiana, St. John Chrystostome, St. Basil, Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Victor of Braga, St. Genesius of Arles, Rufinus, St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St. Ambrose, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, St. John of Damascus, St. Bonaventure, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Robert Bellarmine, and St. Alphonsus Liguori.
    Of course there is no such condemnation, or anything even close to it. I can't believe you just posted what you did.
     

    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #147 on: March 24, 2017, 11:09:43 PM »
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  • Stop and look at what you are suggesting here. You are saying that anyone can write an opinion on a doctrine of the Church, and if he or someone else calls him a theologian, his "vote" counts against the unanimous consent of theologians! That's not how it works. Guardian Angels have never been solemnly defined, but they are taught by unanimous consent. According to you then, a self proclaimed "theologian" can come along and print a booklet saying Guardian Angels don't exist, and then the Church will have to proclaim, "What a shame, unanimous consent has been broken for Guardian Angels, so the faithful no longer need to believe in them". Give us a break Greg!
     
    What you are doing is pulling quotes from an obscure book from centuries ago, interpreting it as you see fit, and coming to a conclusion which is false. No one is challenging that perfect contrition cannot be had apart from faith. Popes have spoken on this. People who are invincibly ignorant can have faith and perfect contrition, as we see in the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:
     

     
    Stop playing games and submit to what the Popes teach!
     
    Ok, I will. Please list the theologians or popes that teach those who die in ignorance without the virtue of faith can be saved.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #148 on: March 24, 2017, 11:34:02 PM »
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  • Sorry the post is garbled but you can make it out.
    This clearly shows that the Church did teach (or allow) two different things regarding geocentrism.  Therefore the church can allow errors at different times, as with all the other examples it shows how the scope of infallibility is very small.

    The Catholic Church teaches infallibly when it comes to faith and morals, not on other subjects like science and history. Scripture contains things on subjects besides faith and morals, such as on nature, and because Scripture is considered holy, and the Church is the sole interpreter of it, the faithful in general believe what Scripture states on other topics like nature, but those other topics are not considered teachings, just pious beliefs. So a subject like geo-centrism is not considered a doctrine of the Church. The reason the Church originally got involved in condemning heliocentrism was because the Church felt at the time that the way Galileo was presenting it was causing harm to the faithful. Later on, when the Church felt the danger was no longer present, it allowed both heliocentrism and geo-centrism. The Church could do this because this was NOT about a doctrine on faith and morals.

    Again, see the quotes I just posted from the First Vatican Council and the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X confirming that the Church is infallible and cannot allow error. When this is said, it is referring to faith and morals.


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #149 on: March 24, 2017, 11:44:29 PM »
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  • Ok, I will. Please list the theologians or popes that teach those who die in ignorance without the virtue of faith can be saved.
     
    What are you talking about? We just said that the virtue of faith is required for perfect contrition.
     
    I just sent you a quote approved by Pope St. Pius X in his catechism. Why are you dismissing it?