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Author Topic: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"  (Read 10141 times)

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Offline BumphreyHogart

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Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
« Reply #120 on: March 23, 2017, 06:53:19 PM »
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  • Okay, so you are saying the Church changes Her teaching on something? Yes, or No?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #121 on: March 23, 2017, 06:56:45 PM »
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  • Okay, so you are saying the Church changes Her teaching on something? Yes, or No?
    No, I am saying the Church sometimes can allow errors to be taught by her members without always condemning them.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #122 on: March 23, 2017, 06:59:30 PM »
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  • Do you understand, Matto, that Cantarella, and her ilk here, are reversing the historical record? Feeneyites are saying that things popped up and were allowed that were AGAINST PREVIOUSLY DEFINED SOLEMN DOGMA! Do you understand that this is the OPPOSITE of what ever occurred in history? Do you? It's something that NEVER happened, but now the Feeneyites are telling a falsehood that it happened.
    Reversing the historical record? You are the one saying people without faith can be saved simply because their ignorance is not culpable.
    So what? Inculpable ignorance doesn't excuse the need for faith, it excuses the SIN of unbelief, not the need for belief!!!
    I find it interesting that THIS sinful opinion is even more liberal than Vatican II!
    Vatican II in Ad Gentes at least put forth the belief that God would deliver the ignorant native from their ignorance in order to grant them faith! But you say even THAT is not necessary!
    "Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."(17) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity."

    How is it possible for Vatican II to be more orthodox than a sedevacantist?!

    Probably because of the distorted view of error held by sedevacantists.
    Bottom line- nobody without explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity can be saved.
    And further, how many will attain this knowledge that dispels ignorance, which is an ABSOLUTE Necessity of Means with no exceptions whatsoever, and not attain to the baptism which faith commands them to seek?
    YOU are the one pushing the envelope!
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #123 on: March 23, 2017, 07:00:06 PM »
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  • No, Matto, you said the Church taught one thing, and then changed it later. Do you realize you said that?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #124 on: March 23, 2017, 07:05:01 PM »
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  • No, Matto, you said the Church taught one thing, and then changed it later. Do you realize you said that?
    Let me explain then. Nearly everyone in the Church taught geocentrism for over a millenium. And then nearly everyone in the Church taught the opposite. Obviously only one opinion is official Church teaching and one is an error, but both opinions were tolerated by the Church at different times. The same is true in the infants without baptism suffering fire in hell or not. Different opinions were allowed at different times but only one can be official Church teaching. 
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #125 on: March 23, 2017, 07:14:57 PM »
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  • Let me explain then. Nearly everyone in the Church taught geocentrism for over a millenium. And then nearly everyone in the Church taught the opposite. Obviously only one opinion is official Church teaching and one is an error, but both opinions were tolerated by the Church at different times. The same is true in the infants without baptism suffering fire in hell or not. Different opinions were allowed at different times but only one can be official Church teaching.

    Okay, now you feel compelled to explain. The point really is that what was taught was NOT against previously defined solemn dogma. Do you understand that?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #126 on: March 23, 2017, 07:32:57 PM »
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  • My only point was that in times the Church has tolerated errors without always condemning them. And in the case of heliocentrism it was condemned as an error previously but was then tolerated universally with popes even believing that what was condemned as an error was true. Bosco seemed to be arguing that infallibly made it impossible for any error to ever be tolerated by the Church which I was disagreeing with. Anyway I have no desire to be taught by a sedevacantist internet poster whose pseudonym was inspired by an immoral hollywood actor.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #127 on: March 23, 2017, 07:48:37 PM »
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  • No, I am saying the Church sometimes can allow errors to be taught by her members without always condemning them.
     
    Another denier of the dogma of infallibility of the Church! I think that's the 4th person now. Amazing how the Feeneyites are slowly coming out of the woodwork and revealing their true colors now.

    I'm even more amazed that you people seem to have never heard of this dogma! Do you guys have books at home on the Catholic faith, or you do you just have comic books? This dogma is mentioned everywhere! Look at the CE article on Infallibility alone - there is an entire section called, "Proof of the Church' s Infallibility".

    For you others who have blatantly denied this dogma, here are a few more quotes for you:


    First Vatican Council:
    "...for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

    This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell."


    Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Creed Ninth Article:
    33 Q: Can the Church err in what she proposes for our belief?
    A: No, the Church cannot err in what she proposes for our belief, since according to the promise of Jesus Christ she is unfailingly assisted by the Holy Ghost.

    34 Q: Is the Catholic Church infallible, then?
    A: Yes, the Catholic Church is infallible, and hence those who reject her definitions lose the faith and become heretics.




    Offline Matto

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #128 on: March 23, 2017, 07:54:15 PM »
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  • Your beliefs are divorced from reality. Go back to the twilight zone.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #129 on: March 23, 2017, 07:59:56 PM »
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  • Okay, now you feel compelled to explain. The point really is that what was taught was NOT against previously defined solemn dogma. Do you understand that?
     
    Exactly Bumph! There is a difference between error against Catholic doctrine and an error with something else.


    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #130 on: March 23, 2017, 08:08:22 PM »
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  • Okay, now you feel compelled to explain. The point really is that what was taught was NOT against previously defined solemn dogma. Do you understand that?
    Actually Heliocentrism was condemned as a heresy by the Holy Office, as you well know. 
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #131 on: March 23, 2017, 09:30:44 PM »
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  •  
    In favor that geocentrism is binding [img width=0.481000 height=0.481000]http://file:///page28image22600[/img]                                          [/font][/size][/color]Against that it’s binding
    [img width=16.200000 height=0.720000]http://file:///page28image23520[/img]
    1616- eleven theologians of the Holy Office condemn heliocentrism with tacit approval of Pope Paul V
    -St. Robert Bellarmine transmits this decision to Galileo and considers it binding; he considers geocentrism to be de fide
    [img width=221.399000 height=0.481000]http://file:///page28image26936[/img] [img width=221.399000 height=93.480000]http://file:///page28image27632[/img] [img width=0.481000 height=93.480000]http://file:///page28image28392[/img]
    1757- Pope Benedict XIV suspends Decrees of the Congregation of the Index against Heliocentric works
    1822- With approval of Pope Pius VII, the Holy Office decides that books on movement of Earth could be printed at Rome
    [img width=0.481000 height=0.481000]http://file:///page28image31808[/img] [img width=0.481000 height=93.480000]http://file:///page28image32232[/img]
    - The Cong. of the Index published a Decree forbidding all works favoring heliocentrism
    1633- The Holy Office considers Galileo suspect of heresy for favoring heliocentrism; he is required to make an abjuration which indicates that heliocentrism is heretical and that geocentrism is de fide; this is done with approval from Pope Urban VIII
    1664-1665- Pope Alexander VII promulgates an Index on his own authority forbidding all works which contradict geocentrism
    [img width=221.399000 height=0.480000]http://file:///page29image5320[/img] [img width=221.399000 height=163.080000]http://file:///page29image6184[/img] [img width=0.481000 height=163.080000]http://file:///page29image6944[/img]
    1921- Pope Benedict XV explicitly states that the Earth might not be the center of the universe in In Praeclara Summorum
    -All popes from 1757 to 1958 at least tacitly agree that heliocentrism or a non-geocentric view of the universe may be held.

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #132 on: March 23, 2017, 09:33:02 PM »
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  • In favor that geocentrism is binding [img width=0.481000 height=0.481000]http://file:///page28image22600[/img]                                          [/font][/size][/color]Against that it’s binding
    [img width=16.200000 height=0.720000]http://file:///page28image23520[/img]
    1616- eleven theologians of the Holy Office condemn heliocentrism with tacit approval of Pope Paul V
    -St. Robert Bellarmine transmits this decision to Galileo and considers it binding; he considers geocentrism to be de fide
    [img width=221.399000 height=0.481000]http://file:///page28image26936[/img] [img width=221.399000 height=93.480000]http://file:///page28image27632[/img] [img width=0.481000 height=93.480000]http://file:///page28image28392[/img]
    1757- Pope Benedict XIV suspends Decrees of the Congregation of the Index against Heliocentric works
    1822- With approval of Pope Pius VII, the Holy Office decides that books on movement of Earth could be printed at Rome
    [img width=0.481000 height=0.481000]http://file:///page28image31808[/img] [img width=0.481000 height=93.480000]http://file:///page28image32232[/img]
    - The Cong. of the Index published a Decree forbidding all works favoring heliocentrism
    1633- The Holy Office considers Galileo suspect of heresy for favoring heliocentrism; he is required to make an abjuration which indicates that heliocentrism is heretical and that geocentrism is de fide; this is done with approval from Pope Urban VIII
    1664-1665- Pope Alexander VII promulgates an Index on his own authority forbidding all works which contradict geocentrism
    [img width=221.399000 height=0.480000]http://file:///page29image5320[/img] [img width=221.399000 height=163.080000]http://file:///page29image6184[/img] [img width=0.481000 height=163.080000]http://file:///page29image6944[/img]
    1921- Pope Benedict XV explicitly states that the Earth might not be the center of the universe in In Praeclara Summorum
    -All popes from 1757 to 1958 at least tacitly agree that heliocentrism or a non-geocentric view of the universe may be held.
    Sorry the post is garbled but you can make it out.
    This clearly shows that the Church did teach (or allow) two different things regarding geocentrism.  Therefore the church can allow errors at different times, as with all the other examples it shows how the scope of infallibility is very small. 

    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #133 on: March 23, 2017, 11:37:38 PM »
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  • SO, Here, after long and diligent searching, I have found the complete theological vindication of the strict interpretation of Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salvus, not at the hands of an modern theologian, but Francisco Vitoria, a 16th Century Dominican who wrote SPECIFICALLY on the case of natives in invincible ignorance, particularly the American Indians. His writing is extremely important, because he cites other theologians and admits certain views are opposed to a great number of theologians who hold opposite views.

    http://www.constitution.org/victoria/victoria_4.htm

    Reflections on the Indians lately discovered.

    In this work, he takes up and examines two positions in regard to invincible ignorance, both of which arrive at the same conclusion, but differ as to whether ignorance in relation to divine matters is always sinful, or a punishment for sin.

    An excerpt:


    Quote
    "By way of answer let my first proposition be: Before the barbarians heard anything about Christianity, they did not commit the sin of unbelief by not believing in Christ. This proposition is precisely that of St. Thomas in Secunda Secundae, qu. 10, art. 1, where he says that in those who have not heard of Christ unbelief does not wear the guise of sin, but rather of punishment, such ignorance of things divine being a consequence of the sin of our first parent. "Such unbelievers as these," says he, "are indeed open to condemnation for other sins, ... but not for the sin of unbelief." 


    However, interestingly, he goes on to say:


    Quote
    "This proposition is opposed to the teaching of many doctors and especially to that of Altissiodorensis, 3 p.,[10] on the question, Utrum fidei possit subesse falsum, where he says that ignorance not only of Christ, but of any article of faith is not invincible ignorance in any one, for if a man does what in him lies, God will illuminate him either through the doctor that is within him or through a doctor outside, and so it is always a mortal sin to believe anything contrary to articles of faith. He takes an illustration from an old woman to whom a bishop might preach something contrary to an article of faith. And he lays down the general proposition that ignorance of divine law excuseth none. William of Paris was of the same opinion and supported it by the same kind of argument. For either, says he, such an one does what in him lies and therefore will receive illumination, or if he does not this, he is without excuse. And Gerson (De spirituali vita animae, lect. 4) appears to be of the same view. "Doctors are unanimous," says he, "that in matters of the divine law there is no room for invincible ignorance, seeing that God will always help him who does what in him lies, and He is ready to enlighten the mind as far as will be necessary for salvation and the avoidance of error." And Hugo de Sancto Victore ([11]bk. 2, pt. 6, ch. 5) says that none is excused by ignorance for breach of the command to receive baptism, for he could have heard and known, had it not been for his own fault, as was the case with Cornelius (Acts, ch. 10)."


    So he admits many theologians before him did NOT admit anyone was in invincible ignorance regarding that which was needed for belief unto salvation. Nevertheless, he takes up the opinion of St. Thomas, and admits that in regard to the faith, they are in invincible ignorance:


    Quote
    "I say accordingly on this point that negligence with regard to the subject-matter is requisite for ignorance, even though it be vincible, to be imputed as, and to be, a sin, as, for example, that the man refused to hear or did not believe what he did hear; and on the other band I say that for invincible ignorance it is enough that the man bestowed human diligence in trying to learn, even if in other respects he is in mortal sin. And so on this point our judgment is the same concerning one in sin and one in grace, both now and immediately after Christ's coming or after His passion."


    BUT he comes to the same judgment as Hugh of St. Victor, that all who do not believe and are baptized are condemned for other mortal sins BESIDES the unbelief of which they are invincibly ignorant:


    Quote
    "But the mistake which the doctors in question make is in thinking that when we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith it follows at once that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith, which, however, does not follow. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief, as St. Thomas (Secunda Secundae, as above) says, namely, that if they do what in them lies, accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God's providence and He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ, but it does not therefore follow that if their life be bad, ignorance or unbelief in baptism and the Christian faith may be imputed to them as a sin."


    Therefore, in accordance with the teaching of Catholic theologians who lived at the same time as the council of Trent, it is permissible and allowable to assert one of two opinions, either:

    A. All those who are in ignorance of the gospel are not excused from their obligation to hear and to know it, and if they die in the sin of unbelief, it is due to their own negligence and refusal to pursue baptism. Such was the opinion of the great theologian Hugh of St. Victor as well as many other theologians.

    B. All those who are in invincible ignorance of the gospel do not sin in their unbelief, but their unbelief is a punishment for their OTHER mortal sins, for which they will be damned. Their lack of confessing Christ and their lack of baptism are punishments for unrepentant mortal sin and a failure to correspond to actual graces.

    I take the second because it is more in accord with St. Thomas Aquinas and the later teaching of Popes. 

    The conclusion of both is the same- Even a person who is invincibly ignorant of the truth, should they die without the gospel and baptism are damned on account of their mortal sins.

    Therefore, if any are saved they will infallibly embrace the faith and infallibly enter the Church. So many examples of such things happening could be given, but here is just one:

     
    Quote
    St. Columba preached and worked miracles among the Picts, and, though he spoke by an interpreter, he made converts. One day on the banks of Loch Ness he cried: Let us make haste to meet the angels, who are come down from heaven and await us beside the death-bed of a Pict, who has kept the natural law, that we may baptize him before he dies." He was then aged himself, but he outstripped his companions, and reached Glen Urquhart, where the old man expected him, heard him, was baptized, and died in peace. And once, preaching in Skye, he cried out, "You will see arrive an aged chief, a Pict, who has kept faithfully the natural law; he will come here to be baptized and to die;" and so it was.

    New Catholic World (1867) pg. 668


    He who has ears to hear!
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Dogma of "infallibility of the Church"
    « Reply #134 on: March 24, 2017, 03:14:12 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  Your posts could not possibly be more non-Catholic.... I absolutely cringe when I read them. We REALLY need that hide button back..

    So what is it that prompted you to name this thread what you did - yet you did not post the dogma at all, certainly not as V1 infallibly decreed it, rather you chose to post a corrupted version?

    You should cringe, the truth as taught by the Catholic Church always makes the liberals cringe, and you can only hide from the truth for so long, then comes the judgement.



    Quote
    The original post refers to a quote from "The Catechism Explained" (1899) - a very trusted Catholic resource with imprimatur. The quote simply refers the reader to several quotes from SCRIPTURE, which is where the dogma of infallibility of the Church ORIGINATES! Have you ever stopped and thought for one moment WHY the Church is called "the pillar and ground of truth" in Scripture ? ? ? ? Hint: there really IS a reason - take a wild guess!

    I asked why did you not post the solemn definition of "the Church's infallibility" right from the First Vatican Council - I already know "The Catechism Explained (1899)" does NOT teach the same thing V1 decreed - rather than you proving me wrong by posting V1's solemn decree(s) on infallibility, you retort with more of your self inflicted aghasting mumbo jumbo.

    Either show you have a modicuм of comprehension within you and already post V1's solemn decrees dictating exactly what the Church's infallibility is, or go back and wallow in your site promoting the condemned "doctrine" of salvation via NSAA.

    Again, "The Catechism Explained (1899)" is not citing or teaching the dogma of infallibility at all. "The Catechism Explained (1899)" cannot be reconciled with the dogma at all. IF "The Catechism Explained (1899)" was the dogma or taught the dogma, then the conciliar church is the Catholic Church - but even you do not believe this, yet you promote the teaching from "The Catechism Explained (1899)" as if it is the infallible teaching of the Church, while COMPLETELY ignoring the actual solemnly defined decrees of V1. Are we to suppose your intentions are honest for doing this? Hmmmm?

    We are in this crisis, in large part, because "The Catechism Explained (1899)" and the multitude of text books like it, all having imprimaturs, teach the same lie in some form - yet if it really is the dogma as you say but don't believe yourself, then you only demonstrate that you have ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH AT ALL in the dogma because if you did, you would be (are?) a member of the conciliar church.    



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse