Sorry... . meant to say,.... Does BOD "PROVIDE" the grace of Baptism
Yes, now if you listen to these antagonists in Filmore N.Y. you may be confused by their straw man argument. I have listened to this recording which is filled with truths (when they quote the Church) and lies (when they give their opinions), which is the exact sign that identifies a modernist (enemy). St Pius X was crystal clear on this matter.
The grace of Baptism/rebirth is the remission of the guilt of sin and remission of the temporal punishment due to every sin.
St Thomas clearly teaches this, in respect to the remission of the guilt of sin:
I answer that, As the Apostle says (Romans 6:3), "all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in His death." And further on he concludes (Romans 6:11): "So do you also reckon that you are dead to sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Hence it is clear that by Baptism man dies unto the oldness of sin, and begins to live unto the newness of grace. But every sin belongs to the primitive oldness. Consequently every sin is taken away by Baptism.
And in respect to the temporal punishment due to every sin, he explains:
I answer that, As stated above (49, 3, ad 2; 68, 1,4,5) by Baptism a man is incorporated in the Passion and death of Christ, according to Romans 6:8: "If we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ." Hence it is clear that the Passion of Christ is communicated to every baptized person, so that he is healed just as if he himself had suffered and died. Now Christ's Passion, as stated above (Question 68, Article 5), is a sufficient satisfaction for all the sins of all men. Consequently he who is baptized, is freed from the debt of all punishment due to him for his sins, just as if he himself had offered sufficient satisfaction for all his sins.
Their bogus straw man argument will have you to think, (23:10 mark of the video), "That those theologians teach that BOD does not provide the grace of rebirth".
The question is do we go to purgatory for venial sin when we die? I am sure you will say yes, provided they have not been atoned for in this world. Well a catechumen who has been justified by Baptism of Repentance, and has resolved to get Baptized will commit venial sins before receiving the sacrament. This is what the Saints are unfolding.
The Dimonds are dangerous, mostly all of their commentary is the opposite of the truth, i.e. "The best argument against "Baptism of Desire", is actually the worst.
The Dimonds answered to what you said.
Here's their response:
More Astounding Blindness from the ‘BOD’ Camp MHFM: An attempted response to the argument in our video, The Best Argument Against “Baptism of Desire”, recently came to our attention. The response is so pathetic that it doesn’t even require a comment. However, we felt that it provides an interesting example of how deluded and dishonest the defenders of heresy are. The words below were written by a heretic named ‘GJC.’ Someone asked the heretic to answer the question we cover in the video: Does ‘BOD’ provide the grace of baptism? In response to the question (and the argument in our video), he writes:
Yes, now if you listen to these antagonists in Filmore N.Y. you may be confused by their straw man argument. I have listened to this recording which is filled with truths (when they quote the Church) and lies (when they give their opinions), which is the exact sign that identifies a modernist (enemy). St Pius X was crystal clear on this matter.
The grace of Baptism/rebirth is the remission of the guilt of sin and remission of the temporal punishment due to every sin.
St Thomas clearly teaches this, in respect to the remission of the guilt of sin:
I answer that, As the Apostle says (Romans 6:3), "all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in His death." And further on he concludes (Romans 6:11): "So do you also reckon that you are dead to sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Hence it is clear that by Baptism man dies unto the oldness of sin, and begins to live unto the newness of grace. But every sin belongs to the primitive oldness. Consequently every sin is taken away by Baptism.
And in respect to the temporal punishment due to every sin, he explains:
I answer that, As stated above (49, 3, ad 2; 68, 1,4,5) by Baptism a man is incorporated in the Passion and death of Christ, according to Romans 6:8: "If we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ." Hence it is clear that the Passion of Christ is communicated to every baptized person, so that he is healed just as if he himself had suffered and died. Now Christ's Passion, as stated above (Question 68, Article 5), is a sufficient satisfaction for all the sins of all men. Consequently he who is baptized, is freed from the debt of all punishment due to him for his sins, just as if he himself had offered sufficient satisfaction for all his sins.
Their bogus straw man argument will have you to think, (23:10 mark of the video), "That those theologians teach that BOD does not provide the grace of rebirth".
The question is do we go to purgatory for venial sin when we die? I am sure you will say yes, provided they have not been atoned for in this world. Well a catechumen who has been justified by Baptism of Repentance, and has resolved to get Baptized will commit venial sins before receiving the sacrament. This is what the Saints are unfolding.
The Dimonds are dangerous, mostly all of their commentary is the opposite of the truth…
GJC
MHFM: The statements above constitute a striking example of the incredible dishonesty and profound blindness of heretics. Their dishonesty results in absolute idiocy. To the question of whether ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ supplies the grace of baptism, the fool (and he truly deserves that title) quotes something from St. Thomas in which St. Thomas teaches that Baptism itself provides the grace of baptism. Yes, no one denies that St. Thomas taught that the Sacrament of Baptism itself provides the grace of baptism (which grace is the full remission of the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment due to every sin). We are well aware of that fact. The question is NOT: did St. Thomas teach that the Sacrament of Baptism provides the grace of baptism? He of course did. The question IS: does ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE,’ as defined and explained by St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, etc., provide the grace of baptism? Of course, the answer is no, as the video proves.
And since Trent defined that the grace of first justification is itself the grace of baptism (i.e., the remission of the guilt of every sin and the punishment owed for every sin) that proves that ‘baptism of desire’ cannot justify anyone and that it’s a false doctrine without any doubt. In fact, if the heretic who attempted to respond to the argument and the question had any idea what he’s talking about – or if he even carefully watched the video (he probably lacked the humility to do so) – he would have discovered that theologians who favored the false doctrine of ‘BOD’ repeatedly taught that it does not provide the grace of baptism/spiritual rebirth. Yet, even though our statement is 100% true, the heretic says that it’s a ‘bogus straw man argument’ to say they taught that ‘BOD’ doesn’t provide the grace of baptism! Amazing. It’s a clear example of how the obstinate proponents of ‘BOD’ are liars to the core. They simply cannot tell the truth. That’s why it’s almost impossible to get a heretic such as the one quoted above into an actual debate; for the nonsense and the lies they spread would be refuted in about two minutes.
His paragraphs are a clear example how inept and (one must say) actually stupid evil people become as a consequence of hating the truth and hating those who promote it. (His hatred of both is clear from his words. That’s because he’s of Satan, and he’s of lies.) In his blindness, he thinks that the promoters of Catholic truth are enemies of the faith. That’s the punishment he has received from God for his dishonesty and bad will: to believe that the truth is evil, and that those who promote it are evil. The reality is that he’s the one who is evil. He’s the enemy of the faith and on the road to Hell. That’s why he cannot even recognize the absurd arguments he’s advancing or the blatant lies he’s promoting.
For example, in expanding upon his false argument, the heretic asserts that what St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus (in teaching ‘BOD’) are actually ‘unfolding’ is the idea that ‘baptism of desire’ does supply the grace of baptism (and the full remission of the temporal punishment due to sin); but that after receiving that grace (which includes the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin), one can live for a certain period of time and commit sins. Then, at some later point in time, according to his summary of their position, the person can die and would have to suffer in Purgatory to satisfy for the sins committed after having received ‘Baptism of Desire.’ But that’s patent nonsense. What he’s asserting is demonstrably false.
St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus explicitly taught that ‘BOD’ does not provide the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin. Thus, according to them, it doesn’t bring the grace of baptism. Whether you think ‘baptism of desire’ (which doesn’t exist) occurs only at death (as some say) or during one’s life (as the heretic quoted above says) makes no difference to this point. According to St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, the change effectuated by ‘BOD’ (whenever you think it occurs) does not provide the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin. It thus doesn’t provide the grace of baptism. That’s what they taught, as their words prove. (See the video). Since the grace of first justification is the grace of baptism (which necessarily includes the remission of the temporal punishment due to every sin), and ‘baptism of desire’ doesn’t provide that, ‘baptism of desire’ is infallibly a false doctrine.
So, in his futile attempt to answer the question and defend his completely false position, the heretic has resorted to blatantly lying about what the saints taught. That’s why the argument/question posed in the video is so effective and devastating.
If people even try to address it, they will undoubtedly contradict Catholic dogma, contradict themselves, contradict their arguments, contradict the people they cite, utter blatant lies, etc. That’s because they don’t have the truth.
Topic: Does BOD proved the grace of baptism? (Read 22556 times)