Author Topic: Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth? (Read 13171 times)

Nishant · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2014, 11:08:28 AM »

I see you speak Dimondese, patientiam. How charming. "The Ink dried" is a common way we refer to edits on this forum, after the time runs out.

Your lame projections grow old real quick. If you're still going to deny that a double negative in language amounts to a positive, then that is your issue.

I asked you two other questions, to which you didn't even attempt to reply. Because they show clearly that Trent is speaking of receiving the sacramental effect in desire, as it is for penance and the Eucharist.

Major: Sacrament of penance is necessary for salvation as baptism itself is necessary. (directly from Trent)

Minor: Sacrament of penance is necessary in fact or in desire (Trent, admitted by all)

Conclusion. Therefore, baptism too is necessary in fact or in desire.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2014, 11:41:59 AM »

Quote from: Nishant

Ladislaus, some issues.

1. This is the passage in question, which you cited, and it describes why this is so "For in those who are born again God hates nothing, because there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism unto death." So is it really appropriate to apply this to BOD?

As you know, Trent teaches that all justification has the Sacrament of Baptism as its instrumental cause, thus the reference to being born again "BY" Baptism. Even in BoD you have to say that Baptism is receive in voto. This passage does not restrict the definition of rebirth to the kind of rebirth that takes place in the Sacrament of Baptism. You're left with a preposterous notion of "rebirth" that doesn't in effect re-create the soul and make it new again.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2014, 12:28:51 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

2. Baptism of desire is similar to an act of perfect love of God or of contrition. Therefore, it has the similar effect to perfect contrition, which as we know, (and is dogmatically defined) remits the eternal punishment entirely but the temporal punishment only in part, i.e. in proportion to the intensity with which God is loved, as the Doctors explain. Otherwise all Catholics who make an act of contrition will go to heaven immediately, which need not be the case.

This explanation of how it works is entirely gratuitous. Based on the Trent citations, this thinking needs to be changed. We cannot go the other way around and reinterpret Trent in order to justify this explanation of how BoD works. Trent obviously has a higher authority than this entirely speculative viewpoint. You need to abandon this explanation of how BoD works.

patientiam · « **Reply #33 on:** April 24, 2014, 12:28:59 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

Major: Sacrament of penance is necessary for salvation as baptism itself is necessary. (directly from Trent)

Minor: Sacrament of penance is necessary in fact or in desire (Trent, admitted by all)

Conclusion. Therefore, baptism too is necessary in fact or in desire.

Your logic is false, absurd and demonic.

One cannot say:

Major: Both prayer and air are necessary
Minor: Prayer is necessary in fact or in desire
Conclusion: Therefore, air too is necessary in fact or desire.

One cannot say:

1. A and B are red.
2. A also has green and orange.
3. Therefore, B also has green and yellow.

You are simply a lying heretic.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #34 on:** April 24, 2014, 12:38:06 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

3. Baptism of desire cannot effect the sacramental character for many reasons, but just one from the practice of the Church will suffice. It is taught that catechumens can receive justification by baptism of desire, but even these catechumens have to receive baptism when they can. But if they did receive the character, then this would not be so, for the Church teaches that it is precisely the character that forbids the repetition of the sacrament.

But, to use BoDer "logic", how can God be "bound by the Sacraments" even when it comes to conferring this character? And a lot of BoD theorists will say that BoD only happens at the moment of death.

Quote

4. How is it possible for one in the state of original or mortal to receive the remission of temporal punishment, Ladislaus? Theology on indulgences, which are remissions of temporal punishment, and the conditions for receiving them, seems clearly to preclude that.

I don't think that indulgences have anything to do with this. Original / Mortal sin involve the guilt of sin, whereas the temporal punishment involves the consequences of sin. I feel that the good people do can alter the degree of the pains of sense (temporal punishment) they would suffer even in hell (where there is no beatific vision). So you have two people, one commits a single act of adultery and is damned. Another commits a single act of adultery and is damned. But the second person also did all kinds of good deeds for people (gave to charity, showed kindness), whereas the first didn't do anything of this nature. I can't imagine how the second person's suffering in hell for eternity wouldn't be less than that of the first because some of the natural goodness would offset some of the temporal punishment (pain of sense). I can't imagine that the eternal sufferings of these two people would be identical. I obviously have no proof for this; it's just speculation (along the lines of the existence of BoD).