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Author Topic: Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?  (Read 13062 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2014, 10:02:56 AM »
We've digressed of course from the main thread topic.

There's no doubt at all that the explanation of St. Thomas (followed by St. Alphonsus) that BoD does not remit all the temporal punishment due to sin MUST BE REJECTED as contrary to the teaching of Trent.

Trent teaches that there cannot be any justification without rebirth and then defines rebirth as a state in which the soul is returned to a state of perfect innocence and can enter directly into heaven without delay (as the term itself clearly denotes).

Why are you so loathe to say that St. Thomas got it wrong?  After all, St. Thomas also got the Immaculate Conception wrong.  Big deal.  You can still hold to BoD, but you must reject one popular explanation for how it works.

I'll tell you why.

It's because it puts all of BoD on shaky ground.  If St. Thomas got the explanation of BoD wrong, then his understanding of it appears to be flawed, and therefore the very concept of BoD loses the authority of St. Thomas.  You'd rather promote a notion of "rebirth" that leaves the soul polluted by past sin than to reject St. Thomas' explanation of BoD.

Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2014, 11:45:09 AM »
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Very few authorities even deal with this passage ... I acknowledge that others have interpreted it differently.  I acknowledge that I'm in the minority.


We've seen St. Alphonsus and St. Robert cite it before, and these were members of the ecclesia docens. But beside them every single authority since Trent who cites this passage teaches it the way I defended, and not one the way you do.Theologians in general are intermediaries between the teaching Church and the Church taught, as Pius IX said, when they unanimously teach with universal and constant consent that a certain doctrine is a taught by the Church, in this case in Trent, the faithful or Church taught are bound to follow. This is a habitual rule of Faith all are obliged by, a manifestation of our subjection to the teaching Church, the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

Given that we don't agree on this, there might not be much point in going on, but I will reply for the sake of completion.

You didn't address the issue of Catechisms, even that of  Trent, going against you, as well as the other statements such as that of Pope St. Pius V.

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If you make the "or" in Trent disjunctive, "either ... or" , then you're saying that the Sacrament can justify without the will ... Notice the use of the "vel ... vel" (vel sacramento, vel sacramenti voto), which is an explicit "either ... or"


First, you're ignoring the common use of voto to denote sacramental effect, and not a mere disposition. Secondly, applying your linguistic argument to the second case, that of penance, where you admit the "either ... or", is Trent then saying that "the sacrament can justify without the will"? According to your argument, it must be, because it says is effected by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament, that is, by each individually.

But of course it is not. For it suffices to say the sacrament remits the guilt, because that is the effect caused by the sacrament, the proper disposition in receiving it being presumed and not needing to be expressly mentioned.

Again, I deny that the construction is different, it says, ""sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto" similar to how it says, "quæ vel sacramento, vel sacramenti voto", in each case adding a clause to show that desire can cause the sacramental effect. Desire as voto never refers to a disposition.

If Trent meant to teach as you do, there was no reason then to add "aut ejus voto", just as if Trent meant to teach the sacramental effect could not be realized by the desire for penance, there was no reason to add "vel sacramenti voto".

Trent interprets what Scripture means, Scripture doesn't interpret what Trent means. The passage in John 3:5, when taken together with other words of the Apostle and of the Lord in the Gospel, doesn't preclude the triune baptism but rather includes it. Jesus came not in Water only but in Water and Blood, says the Apostle. The Spirit, the water, and the blood are one, continues St. John, just as God is Three and One. Jesus explained this to St. Catherine of Sienna, but you don't recognize that.

Your analogy presumes what it needs to prove. I could say the correct analogy would be, "One cannot play baseball without a bat, or a substitute for a bat" which is more like the construction of the original statement, where what follows the or refers back to what precedes it, whereas a ball is something having nothing to do with a bat as such. Aut ejus voto means or the desire of the same, the same to which it refers back, just as vel sacramenti voto means or the desire of the sacrament.

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Those who interpreted it differently misunderstood it by drawing a bad analogy with Penance


A gratuitous assertion that isn't true for most. St. Robert for example wasn't speaking of penance at all, but of baptism and catechumens, and he asserts Trent teaches baptism is necessary in fact or in desire.


Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2014, 11:49:34 AM »
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BoD/BoB theologians distinguish the two, differentiating that BoD works ex opere operantis but that BoB works quasi ex opere operato.


Yes, but you're misunderstanding what this means. I cited St. Alphonsus, and I say exactly what he and others do, if you show me otherwise, I will change my opinion immediately. Baptism of desire depends on the work of the working one, the degree and intensity of the contrition he has, whereas baptism of blood depends on the very work worked, which is why it bears a closer resemblance to the Passion, to the sacrament, and to Christ's work in it.

Theologians explain that baptism of desire is an act of love of God, but in the case of BOB, martyrdom itself is the act of love of God. It is the very work worked, and not the work of the working one, which is why it avails for infants, for instance. St. Alphonsus goes on to mention this example, saying those who deny it are at least temerarious. To be martyred for Christ is the greatest act of love.

You say you hold to theology whereas I hold to sentimentality, but I think the opposite is true. If the Church taught unbaptized martyrs go to hell and suffer sense pains, I would accept it, while you seem to struggle with the common teaching of the Saints and Doctors of the Church, including those who by divine privilege have experienced something of the latter, that the pains of hell even for naturally virtuous persons would surpass the pains of purgatory, the least of which surpass all the pains of the present life.

I respectfully answer you that you don't have the right to speculate against the commonly received teaching, nor to call teaching proposed to us as certain a speculation, nor does your opinion have anywhere nearly the same weight and authority as that of an approved theologian or Doctor of the Church, whereas even they would hesitate to speculate in opposition to what is universally taught in all Catholic schools. I cited the teaching of Saints and Doctors of the Church on purgatory and hell, and not my own.

I will close with two traditional proofs that justification happens by baptism of desire, and that the entirety of temporal punishment is not remitted by it. Perhaps to discontinue my participation in this discussion henceforth, however you choose to reply.

First is the example of Cornelius, whom Sts from Augustine through Thomas to Alphonsus and several others see as clearly having been justified in Scripture while yet a catechumen before being water baptized, showing there is no incoherence at all in such a thing. This is evident from St. Peter and St. Luke in Scripture, and it shows that the baptismal effect can be received in desire. The second is based on another thing St. Peter says about those who in the days of Noah were disobedient, and in purgatory until Christ came to release them, as various traditional sources have commented, which shows some of the just who converted in their last moments being chained in purgatory for a very long time.

I've mentioned that the Church understands the passages on love of God in Scripture to refer to both catechumens and penitents alike in Her catechisms, which itself suffices to show this is no speculation, but certain doctrine we are meant to receive and uphold. Contrition therefore according to the mind of the Church has the same effect in catechumens and in penitents, and the effect of contrition is taught in Trent.


Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2014, 11:58:04 AM »
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Threads like this belong in their own sub-forum.  


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Offline JoeZ

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Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2014, 04:04:44 PM »
To Mr Neil Obstat:

If you would sir, please explain why in your syllogisms, your minor propositions start with the word but. I'm fearful that I'm missing a fuller meaning.

but |bət|
conjunction
1 used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned
• nevertheless; however : he stumbled but didn't fall | this is one principle, but it is not the only one.
• on the contrary; in contrast : I am clean but you are dirty | the problem is not that they are cutting down trees, but that they are doing it in a predatory way.
2 [with negative or in questions ] used to indicate the impossibility of anything other than what is being stated : one cannot but sympathize | there was nothing they could do but swallow their pride | they had no alternative but to follow.
3 used to introduce a response expressing a feeling such as surprise or anger : but that's an incredible saving! | but why?
4 used after an expression of apology for what one is about to say : I'm sorry, but I can't pay you.
5 [with negative ] archaic without its being the case that : it never rains but it pours.


Thank you for your time.
God bless all here,
JoeZ